The Atari 2600+ is live for preorders!

[desiv]

15 minutes ago, donjn said:

Not to bring up Pitfall II again, but at this time, we know it does not work.

IS THERE EVER a chance it could work with the Atari 2600+, or is that impossible?

 

Yeah, and it has come up a few times...

I don't see a need for using something complicated like USB tho...

 

The easy way to get it to work is to have the game pre-cached on the system when bought.

Then, when the cartridge is inserted, the dumper dumps what it can, recognizes that it is Pitfall II and can't run normally, and then launches the cached copy of the game.

That does mean that it would need to be an emulator that can run that game from that ROM.  Not sure if Stella can do that, but I'm pretty sure some emulators probably can (I don't use Atari VCS emulation, so I haven't tried to run Pitfall II with it...)
That said, as has also been mentioned, that pre-caching of the Pitfall II image than an emulator can run would almost definitely need permission.  Even tho you'd technically need to insert the cart to kickstart it, the file would still be there....

Now, Plaion has mentioned that there is some caching ability in the test systems...

So, I don't see any technical reason this can't be done...

And getting the permission might not be a big deal if the copyright owner is OK with the thought that it won't run without the cart being physically inserted...

 

Whether or not it will might depend on some permissions and whether or not Plaion thinks that is a supportable option.

Just because something "can" be done doesn't mean it's a good business decision to do it...

That said, it is a very popular game, so it might be a good reason...

 

And maybe they could swing a special 2600+ re-release "cart"  to actually sell???  All that is marketing and audiences and whether or not it is worth it business wise.  
So, I have no idea...
I wouldn't be on it...
But I wouldn't bet on it not happening...   

[zzip]

55 minutes ago, Flojomojo said:

The 2600+ wouldn't be able to use the extra chips in the Pitfall II cartridge, since it works by simply dumping the files into a software emulator. There's no reason the emulator couldn't run Pitfall II directly, though -- so long as there's a way to get the ROM file into the emulator via USB or similar. 

I wonder if it's possible for the 2600+ to store the inaccessible parts of Pitfall II in case someone plugs in that cart,  or would that still be a legal issue?    The game wouldn't be playable without the cart.

[zzip]

42 minutes ago, desiv said:

Not sure if Stella can do that, but I'm pretty sure some emulators probably can (I don't use Atari VCS emulation, so I haven't tried to run Pitfall II with it...)

Pitfall II rom works with both Stella and z26

[john_q_atari]

I just checked the Atari preorder page and it now states a December release date.

Edited September 27, 2023 by john_q_atari

[donjn]

9 minutes ago, john_q_atari said:

I just checked the Atari preorder page and it now states a December release date.

This is a good thing.

We can only hope they have used this thread to improve or implement ideas and suggestions to improve this device, even if it pushes back the release date.

[Crimson Cross]

Hopefully the delay won't be longer than December, but if Atari is updating the system with its purchase of AtariAge and all the talks here and elsewhere, plus could they be adding a SD slot or even wifi would be a thought in keeping your systems firmware up to date. The 4th Quarter though for releases is a tough time of the year, anyway hope things are okay with the 2600+...

[Bitsized]

1 hour ago, Albert said:

I will hunt down a Video Touch Pad or any keypad controller and verify whether it works in the 2600+.  Star Raiders was one of the few 2600 games I had as a kid (I practically begged for it for Christmas one year), so I'm eager to know if this combination works as well. 

 

 ..Al

This is great, Al! Please keep us posted on this.  It is one of the bigger wonder questions I have for the exact same reason.

[protomank]

Please forgive my ignorance, but why is not possible to dump Pitfall II ROM from the cartridge?

I know that to play you need to emulate the extra chip, but as we know, emulators alrteady do that. But why the extra chip makes impossible to dump the rom data? Is like something like CPS2/3 that uses encription, or somehow the special chip is placed between the chip containing the rom data and the cartridge interface and you need to implement a way to activate the special chip in order to access the rom chip?

I wonder how the roms of the game out there were dumped...

Thanks in advance.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

6 minutes ago, protomank said:

Please forgive my ignorance, but why is not possible to dump Pitfall II ROM from the cartridge?

Like it has been explained over and over again (last time just 3h ago in this very thread), the dumper has no access to data which is only used cart internal. In this case it is data which is processed by the DPC chip.

[protomank]

30 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

Like it has been explained over and over again (last time just 3h ago in this very thread), the dumper has no access to data which is only used cart internal. In this case it is data which is processed by the DPC chip.

Yes, I did read the whole thread, but this explanation is kinda, sorry again, oversimplistic for what I want to understand (why is data not accessible).

But nevermind, won't take your time more than that. Thank you.

[+splendidnut]

The DPC chip has 2k of graphics data that can only be accessed via a 'read port' of the chip and not directly... To read the data would require the cartridge dumper to write to some of the chip registers and then read the data byte-by-byte via a single port.  It's doable, but the cartridge dumper needs to have the functionality programmed into it to be able to (A) detect that it's a DPC cartridge, and (B) have special code to read that data in.

 

It's all dependent on the team developing the cartridge reader/dumper to implement and whether they have the resources to do it.

[atari2atari]

7 minutes ago, protomank said:

Yes, I did read the whole thread, but this explanation is kinda, sorry again, oversimplistic for what I want to understand (why is data not accessible).

But nevermind, won't take your time more than that. Thank you.

Don't worry about it chief, there's a lotta big personalities here and sometimes people forget to slow down and help the new people get up to speed.  Y'know, it's the internet... lol

 

 

Don't give up hope on Pitfall II yet!  Ben noted a few pages back that there may be a way to pull that information from the cartridge, and they will explore it.  

On 9/21/2023 at 12:01 PM, Ben from Plaion said:

Yeah Pitfall II and I think there is a couple more obscure games with added chips on the cart that wont work. Having said that someone told me the other day if we read X on the cart and did this it might work. We'll look into it for sure.

 

Shifting topics, but only sideways a bit -- I just discovered yesterday that the Atari 800 / 5200 version of Pitfall II has ANOTHER set of caverns after the first one!!  It wasn't advertised explicitly, as corporate didn't want people to know about it.  Wild!  I loaded up Pitfall II on my original XBOX CoinOPS frontend and started playing last night.  A new set of caverns?!?  Sign me up, I never thought I could get to play MORE Pitfall II than already existed!

 

https://www.ign.com/articles/pitfall-iis-secret-sequel

 

And a bit more detail from a small retro review of the game years earlier:

 

https://commaeightcommaone.wordpress.com/2016/09/03/pitfall-ii-lost-caverns-review/

 

Cool!

 

[ForceInfinity]

So maybe let’s go into the weeds a bit.    What is it about the rom dumper where it can’t be made to read the rom on demand.   Maybe I’m misunderstanding how DPC and the ARM chip works but they would seeming work in the background and write their results somewhere in that 4kb space the Atari sees.   
 

Could the emulator not be written in a way to read the romdumper at a specific address pull what it sees there and execute upon it?  Does the Atari have some capability of seeing beyond 4kb that the rom dumper does not?   
 

I’m not a hardware guy so I suspect it’s something small I’m missing

 

Just saw the reply above.  Makes more sense

Edited September 27, 2023 by ForceInfinity
Reply came in as I was typing this

[Dionoid]

15 minutes ago, splendidnut said:

The DPC chip has 2k of graphics data that can only be accessed via a 'read port' of the chip and not directly... To read the data would require the cartridge dumper to write to some of the chip registers and then read the data byte-by-byte via a single port.  It's doable, but the cartridge dumper needs to have the functionality programmed into it to be able to (A) detect that it's a DPC cartridge, and (B) have special code to read that data in.

 

It's all dependent on the team developing the cartridge reader/dumper to implement and whether they have the resources to do it.

…so you’re saying that dumping Pitfall II is possible, but that it needs specific dumper-code which is only used for this game? 
If Atari/Plaion would allow the AtariAge community to extend the dumper code and do custom firmware updates, that could maybe be the solution to get Pitfall II supported on the Atari 2600+ ?

Edited September 27, 2023 by Dionoid

[+splendidnut]

Just now, Dionoid said:

…so you’re saying that dumping Pitfall II is possible, but that it seems specific dumper-code which is only used for this game? 
If Atari/Plaion would allow the AtariAge community to extend the dumper code and do custom firmware updates, that could maybe be the solution to get Pitfall II supported?

Yes, that's my understanding of the situation.  While I'm not privvy to what hardware they are using to dump the cartridge, I believe that as long as that hardware is programmable, it should be possible to dump all of Pitfall 2 with this device.  I'm guessing it is a low priority item since it would only be used to support a single game.

 

 

[desiv]

29 minutes ago, protomank said:

Yes, I did read the whole thread, but this explanation is kinda, sorry again, oversimplistic for what I want to understand (why is data not accessible).

But nevermind, won't take your time more than that. Thank you.

I know this is a crazy long thread, but just FYI, Batari gave a decent description and way to get around it earlier too...

On 9/13/2023 at 1:21 AM, batari said:

The sprite data may be read from the VCS bus, though it has to be done using a fetcher. You set the pointers for one of the fetchers to the beginning of sprite data (I think that storing zeros to the "top" and "bottom" pointers should suffice?), then the entire 2k DPC ROM can be fully dumped by reading that fetcher 2048 times.

So yeah, there are a couple of ways it could possibly be handled...
I'd be surprised if it is supported on the initial release (but I've been surprised before, so that doesn't mean much), but I think even if not, there could definitely be a later upgrade that addresses this...

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by desiv

[atari2atari]

4 minutes ago, splendidnut said:

...only be used to support a single game.

Man, I hope they do, though.  It's THE grandaddy of the side-scrolling platformer genre (maybe the original Pitfall is the grandma?)

 

But hey, overall, this 2600+ is a cool product and I am very optimistic now after seeing the energy being focused on improving it before and AFTER release, it sounds like -- glad to see Ben here in the thread, and if it's delayed to December for improving the device, that's great news, too!

 

ATARI FO-EVA !

[protomank]

35 minutes ago, splendidnut said:

The DPC chip has 2k of graphics data that can only be accessed via a 'read port' of the chip and not directly... To read the data would require the cartridge dumper to write to some of the chip registers and then read the data byte-by-byte via a single port.  It's doable, but the cartridge dumper needs to have the functionality programmed into it to be able to (A) detect that it's a DPC cartridge, and (B) have special code to read that data in.

 

It's all dependent on the team developing the cartridge reader/dumper to implement and whether they have the resources to do it.

That is exactly what I wanted to know.

You know, maybe in the future we can hack the console and add support, if the official one does not come; that is why such information can be relevant. I am not a hardware guy, but I can always help to code a few things

[zzip]

11 minutes ago, splendidnut said:

Yes, that's my understanding of the situation.  While I'm not privvy to what hardware they are using to dump the cartridge, I believe that as long as that hardware is programmable, it should be possible to dump all of Pitfall 2 with this device.  I'm guessing it is a low priority item since it would only be used to support a single game.

But it's a fairly important game in the Atari catalog. 

 

20 minutes ago, Dionoid said:

…so you’re saying that dumping Pitfall II is possible, but that it needs specific dumper-code which is only used for this game? 
If Atari/Plaion would allow the AtariAge community to extend the dumper code and do custom firmware updates, that could maybe be the solution to get Pitfall II supported on the Atari 2600+ ?

Yeah I could see a few workarounds to getting the game working including these you mention, however unless you hear from Atari or Plaion that the game is working, it's best to assume it's not compatible and might never be.

[T.A.P.]

Is something like Fatal Run likely to work, or does that have custom parts too?

 

Once I learned this will play PAL and NTSC games I ordered a copy, and then reviewed the outdated compatibility list that said it was untested.

 

What about that weird 32-in-1 cart that requires you to repeatedly turn the system off and on to cycle through the games?

[+splendidnut]

The ARM-based games could also be read similar to the Pitfall 2 (DPC chip)... but not all of the hidden data is accessible via the data fetchers.  The ARM driver (used to identify WHAT bankswitching scheme/variant is used) and the music frequency table are not available.  Without access to the ARM driver, it might be a bit tricky to differentiate between DPC+ and the CDF/CDFJ variants without it.  For the other thing, I'm not sure how many games use a customized music frequency table (or use that data area for storing other things) and whether these things can be read/or substituted if necessary.

 

I don't think anything is impossible with this as long as the cartridge dumper has firmware that can be updated and is capable of doing the things necessary to communicate with these custom chips.  Tall order, I know. 

 

[Ben from Plaion]

1 hour ago, Crimson Cross said:

Hopefully the delay won't be longer than December, but if Atari is updating the system with its purchase of AtariAge and all the talks here and elsewhere, plus could they be adding a SD slot or even wifi would be a thought in keeping your systems firmware up to date. The 4th Quarter though for releases is a tough time of the year, anyway hope things are okay with the 2600+...

There is no change to the release date of November 17th.

 

All launch day stock has been manufactured and is on route to distribution centers in US, Europe and Australia right now.

 

There is additional stock being manufactured for the US market currently which is landing in early December in time for holidays.

 

The launch day machines hardware design and software version was locked many months ago. We are now taking the feedback posted here and elsewhere, continuing our internal testing and having discussion with the likely result being a future software update to improve the experience.

 

 

[Ben from Plaion]

16 minutes ago, T.A.P. said:

Is something like Fatal Run likely to work, or does that have custom parts too?

 

Once I learned this will play PAL and NTSC games I ordered a copy, and then reviewed the outdated compatibility list that said it was untested.

 

What about that weird 32-in-1 cart that requires you to repeatedly turn the system off and on to cycle through the games?

Ha, I had a sealed Fatal Run 2600 in my hands today. I have put it to one side to ask if it can be opened.

 

The 32 in 1 works just same as the original machine where you cycle power on and off to get to the next game

[TrogdarRobusto]

20 hours ago, protomank said:

Man, I hope Amazon Brazil picks the Atari 2600+ for selling. This device is a beauty by itself, and then that Atari logo with lights on... amazing job into getting a classic design into a smaller form.

And thanks for the updates, as a software engineer, I know pretty well how transparency into product development is translçated into great products, because you catch some issues that might seem silly, way before and the consumer is much happier because of that.

Atari has some strong licensing partners in Brazil, but I don't know if there is a distributor for the 2600+ in country yet. 

[Crimson Cross]

52 minutes ago, Ben from Plaion said:

There is no change to the release date of November 17th.

 

All launch day stock has been manufactured and is on route to distribution centers in US, Europe and Australia right now.

 

There is additional stock being manufactured for the US market currently which is landing in early December in time for holidays.

 

The launch day machines hardware design and software version was locked many months ago. We are now taking the feedback posted here and elsewhere, continuing our internal testing and having discussion with the likely result being a future software update to improve the experience.

 

 

Gotcha, thanx for the info...