The Atari 2600+ is live for preorders!

[+Defender_2600]

2 hours ago, Gunther said:

 

 

Personally I would prefer the iconic 7800 CX24 (or both).

 

[RockLobster]

On 8/22/2023 at 9:06 AM, BassGuitari said:

I've been waiting/hoping for this since the Flashback 1!

 

How do people who are interested in the 2600+ generally feel about the Retron products that also allow for physical carts but run under emulation?

[akator]

I'm interested in the 2600+ and I love my R77.  I have original Atari systems as well as many others.  I love real hardware, FPGA, and emulation.  They're all awesome.

[RockLobster]

On 8/22/2023 at 11:04 AM, Flojomojo said:

I doubt anyone could put together an FPGA with a dedicated Atari cartridge slot, controller ports

It might be a stretch.   Even the MiSTer 2600/7800 core doesn't have native 2-button controller support for the 7800.  Although the reason is supposedly a limitation of the serial adapter for DB-9 

[RockLobster]

On 8/23/2023 at 1:11 AM, GoldLeader said:

Please put out what people want! 

 

(We know "Atari"'s not gonna do it!)

I don't know how much involvement the Atari company or brand was involved in this, but I absolutely love the Atari/Microcenter all in one arcade stick/trackball/spinner controller with low lag and multiple ways it presents itself to whatever system you're using.

 

[akator]

37 minutes ago, RockLobster said:

It might be a stretch.   Even the MiSTer 2600/7800 core doesn't have native 2-button controller support for the 7800.  Although the reason is supposedly a limitation of the serial adapter for DB-9 

Those are MiSTer hardware based restrictions, not the FPGA.  As I understand it from the lengthy discussions about implementing the original Atari paddles, the MiSTer USB interface and drivers were designed with USB and modern controller inputs in mind, not classic controllers (and especially not analog). 

 

Even when using DB9 to USB adapters that work fine on PCs and can translate the 2 paddles on one DB9 as two control inputs, the Linux system that interprets USB input to the FPGA core wasn't designed to have 2 controllers on one USB port. 

 

It's not unreasonable that a single device (MiSTer), which provides hardware emulation for hundreds of distinct consoles, handhelds, computers, and arcade systems, might have not have 100% compatibility with all classic input devices.

 

A FPGA with hardware input and drivers designed to properly interface with the original controller tech should work fine.  In this case a FPGA recreation specifically for the 7800 / 2600 would not have that compromise, and be fully compatible with the original controllers.  It wouldn't be targeted to USB inputs as the MiSTer is.

Edited August 27, 2023 by akator

[RockLobster]

3 minutes ago, akator said:

As I understand it from the lengthy discussions about implementing the original Atari paddles, the MiSTer USB interface and drivers were designed with USB and modern controller inputs in mind, not classic controllers (and especially not analog). 

Well I don't want to get too off topic here for this 2600+ thread but the S in USB is serial after all.   The serial port that SNAC uses is used specifically for reading serial data input from any device.  For example the C64 core can use it to interface with the serial based 1541 floppy drive.

 

5 minutes ago, akator said:

Even when using DB9 to USB adapters that work fine on PCs and can translate the 2 paddles on one DB9 as two control inputs, the Linux system that interprets USB input to the FPGA core wasn't designed to have 2 controllers on one USB port. 

That's right as you're referring to standard HID controllers but not re: the SNAC above for using native/real controllers:  joysticks, light guns, paddles, etc... which all work great on the 2600/7800 core.

 

7 minutes ago, akator said:

t's not unreasonable that a single device (MiSTer), which provides hardware emulation for hundreds of distinct consoles, handhelds, computers, and arcade systems, might have not have 100% compatibility with all classic input devices.

 

7 minutes ago, akator said:

A FPGA recreation of original hardware is only as accurate as the developers intend it to be. 

Well, whether it's one or multi-core, you're right.  It's always up to the developer working on it.   

 

[Nall3k]

5 hours ago, m.o.terra kaesi said:

Nope. If it wont play Homebrews and SD carts properly you'll be way better served with original setup.

The average consumer isn't going to care for stuff like that. If the device allows them to play Pitfall! or other official third-party games, that's probably all that matters.

[lucienEn]

Does something like a Flashback Gold have better compatibility since it can play directly from a larger USB stick? I haven't heard much about emulation issues there. I assume better compatibility than both Retron 77 & 2600+?

 

I don't fully understand the advantage of having a cartridge instead of a SD/USB slot since I would want to limit swapping old cartridges often to avoid wear & tear on these old cartridges. Unless it will work with a Harmony card which doesn't sound plausible at this point.

 

I do have an old 2600 JR for HW compatibility homebrew testing and this can't replace that sadly.

[m.o.terra kaesi]

6 hours ago, Nall3k said:

The average consumer isn't going to care for stuff like that. If the device allows them to play Pitfall! or other official third-party games, that's probably all that matters.

Seriously, how many such "average customers" exist: people who kept 40 year old carts with no device but willing to pay 130 bucks to check if the're still working? Such people where targeted for raspberry and flashback units.

We will see. I say: Atari should target the "hard core base" with this product, people like in this forum..

[Thomas Jentzsch]

6 hours ago, lucienEn said:

Does something like a Flashback Gold have better compatibility since it can play directly from a larger USB stick? I haven't heard much about emulation issues there. I assume better compatibility than both Retron 77 & 2600+?

Except for the real thing, the R77 provides the maximum compatibility, because you can load any game from the SD card and have the latest emulator installed. The cartridge port (dumper) is more or less a gimmick. Maybe the 2600+ one's is or will become better than the one of the R77, but it will never get as good as a SD cart.

6 hours ago, lucienEn said:

I don't fully understand the advantage of having a cartridge instead of a SD/USB slot since I would want to limit swapping old cartridges often to avoid wear & tear on these old cartridges. 

It is a marketing gimmick, which also allows Atari to sell physical carts. And the uninformed customer may get a nostalgic feeling when he plugs in one of his old carts.

[+x=usr(1536)]

3 hours ago, m.o.terra kaesi said:

Seriously, how many such "average customers" exist: people who kept 40 year old carts with no device but willing to pay 130 bucks to check if the're still working? Such people where targeted for raspberry and flashback units.

We will see.

All of which are valid points.  However:

3 hours ago, m.o.terra kaesi said:

I say: Atari should target the "hard core base" with this product, people like in this forum..

While I agree with the general idea, the hard core base is also the one most likely to own the original hardware.  That makes it difficult to see where the appeal is for that particular group.

[+Defender_2600]

7 hours ago, lucienEn said:

I don't fully understand the advantage of having a cartridge instead of a SD/USB slot since I would want to limit swapping old cartridges often to avoid wear & tear on these old cartridges. Unless it will work with a Harmony card which doesn't sound plausible at this point.

 

53 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

It is a marketing gimmick, which also allows Atari to sell physical carts. And the uninformed customer may get a nostalgic feeling when he plugs in one of his old carts.

Even the aware customer. Inserting the cartridge into the console is part of the experience, and for some people it makes for a more authentic experience. Nostalgic feeling at different levels, in fact you can just use Stella on your PC. But without that nostalgic feeling (or niche "archaeological" interest) then you might find an Xbox more interesting than an Atari 2600.

[+GoldLeader]

What Atari should do is Beg Analogue to make a 2600/7800 FPGA system and license it or make a variant with a big Mount Fuji on it and some new controllers (also branded Atari) and then pay Analogue for a job well done while sending me one on the house as a Thank You!

[Thomas Jentzsch]

14 minutes ago, Defender_2600 said:

Even the aware customer. Inserting the cartridge into the console is part of the experience, and for some people it makes for a more authentic experience. 

But if you are aware, you know that the port is a fake. How can you get an authentic experience from a known fake?

[+Defender_2600]

14 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

But if you are aware, you know that the port is a fake. How can you get an authentic experience from a known fake?

It's just aesthetics and touch but it's still aesthetics and touch, and for some people it's better than nothing. But on the other hand, there are people who consider anything other than the original hardware to be a fake.

[+Spriggy]

10 hours ago, Nall3k said:

The average consumer isn't going to care for stuff like that. If the device allows them to play Pitfall! or other official third-party games, that's probably all that matters.

I don't agree.  The average customer will be old farts who played the console bitd, not Gen Z or Gen Alpha .... and already have original hardware and a decent cart collection .... probably svideo or rca modded.  They will want this new 2600pus system to be able to play everything (2600, 5200, 7800) to hook them in imo.  Original, Homebrews, Mods, Starpath etc.  Else why buy it.  Just buy old, 'cheap' original hardware with a 'cheap' mod to play on modern lcds.    If they want to play Pitfall, they have to have the cart .... which means they likely already have original hardware if they have said cart.  Just makes no sense to me.

 

[+GoldLeader]

1 minute ago, Spriggy said:

I don't agree.  The average customer will be old farts who played the console bitd, not Gen Z or Gen Alpha .... and already have original hardware and a decent cart collection .... probably svideo or rca modded.  They will want this new 2600pus system to be able to play everything (2600, 5200, 7800) to hook them in imo.  Original, Homebrews, Mods, Starpath etc.  Else why buy it.  Just buy old, 'cheap' original hardware with a 'cheap' mod to play on modern lcds.    If they want to play Pitfall, they have to have the cart .... which means they likely already have original hardware if they have said cart.  Just makes no sense to me.

 

 

Ohp!,  I just changed my Like to a Haha!   Somehow I didn't see the TACO the first time around.  I must be slipping in my old age.

 

On an unrelated note;  The other day a guy told me I had a nice taco,...Took me a second to realize he was talking about my Toyota TACOma which people sometimes call Tacos (heh).

[alex_79]

I remember a discussion on this same subject some time ago (I think that was in the R77 thread), and someone suggested that instead of trying to dump the cartridge (which is an error prone process, and requires to update the dumper software to support new cart types), a better solution would be to apply a NFC tag to each cart and associate it to the relative rom already installed in the system. The cartridge port would only contain the NFC reader, with no connection to the pins of the cartridge.

In this way, you're still playing a rom, you still have the "insert physical cart" experience and as a bonus you get better compatibility (no problem running the arm games or something like the Moviecart, as long as you have the roms for them!) and it's easier to add support for new cart types down the road (you only need to upgrade the emulator, and not also the cart dumper).

 

The real issue for the uninformed customers here, is the lack of transparency: this product is disguised as a real console, and also marketed as such. (EDIT: they added a mention of it using emulation in the FAQ, but it wasn't there when th epage first went online)
So people who are not into the technical side of things, just see a console with front switches, a cartridge port, 2  controller ports (thankfully they fixed that "serial port" mention on the site) and think that it would just replace the original and so they buy it.
Maybe they also follow the homebrew scene and like to buy new games and accessories that have been developed by the community and that will continue to be developed in the future, and have no idea of the limitations of this new console they bought.
And they will be disappointed.

 

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by alex_79

[+Spriggy]

28 minutes ago, GoldLeader said:

 

Ohp!,  I just changed my Like to a Haha!   Somehow I didn't see the TACO the first time around.  I must be slipping in my old age.

 

On an unrelated note;  The other day a guy told me I had a nice taco,...Took me a second to realize he was talking about my Toyota TACOma which people sometimes call Tacos (heh).

I miss our old taco adventures on the old 'other' thread with the lads and ladies.  This new Atari venture is not quite on the same league by any stretch ... but still taco worthy.  Marketing needs a good kick in the ass.  If they created a true hardware based 100% compatible system that plays ALL Atari consoles/computer based systems ..... 2600, 5200, 7800, 8-Bit, ST, Falcon, XEGS ... then imo they would have a mild gold mine ... even at a premium price.  Especially for big collectors.  The system would have quite a big size foot print with cartridge slots, cd drive, 3.5 floppy drive etc ... but what a draw card for even new physical collectors.  Knowing one system literally plays all.  What about a PS that plays from 1-5,  Nintendo system that will play all.  Never going to happen and unrealistic.  Money runs the whole system.  Just speaking aloud. 

[+Spriggy]

8 minutes ago, alex_79 said:

The real issue for the uninformed customers here, is the lack of transparency: this product is disguised as a real console, and also marketed as such (I found no mention of emulation on the official site).
 

[alex_79]

18 minutes ago, Spriggy said:

Yep, my bad, I was already editing my post while you posted.

 

EDIT:

No, I actually was remembering correctly: the official page didn't have any mention of emulation when it first appeared. The FAQ section looked like this (courtesy of the Intenet Archive):😄

 

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by alex_79

[Thomas Jentzsch]

1 hour ago, alex_79 said:

No, I actually was remembering correctly: the official page didn't have any mention of emulation when it first appeared. The FAQ section looked like this (courtesy of the Intenet Archive):😄

Looks like Atari/Plaion is following the discussion. And reacts to it, which would be a good thing.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

2 hours ago, alex_79 said:

I remember a discussion on this same subject some time ago (I think that was in the R77 thread), and someone suggested that instead of trying to dump the cartridge (which is an error prone process, and requires to update the dumper software to support new cart types), a better solution would be to apply a NFC tag to each cart and associate it to the relative rom already installed in the system. The cartridge port would only contain the NFC reader, with no connection to the pins of the cartridge.

The NFC tag might ruin the illusion. I wonder if the hash of a partial jump would allow a reliable identification of the cart. 

 

in both cases the firmware would have to know the cart and have the ROM available. The latter could become a legal problem.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Thomas Jentzsch

[m.o.terra kaesi]

Lets hope Atari staff really follows this discussion. If not done yet there is still time to implement the best possible software solution. Hey Atari Folks: all we want is (new) homebrew and SD cart compatibility!

If so, you get dozens and hunderts more customers on board here! 🙌

Edited August 28, 2023 by m.o.terra kaesi