AtariAge + Atari Q&A

[Matt_B]

I'd think that Atari stock is like the proverbial dead cat. The only time it's ever going to show much upward movement is in response to a big drop.

 

Still, don't just take my word for it, they're a publicly traded company and produce regular financial reports, the latest of which you can read here:

https://atari-investisseurs.fr/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/Atari-2023-Consolidated-and-Annual-Financial-Statements-F.pdf

 

To cut to the chase, they made a net loss €9.5 million in FY23. That's something of an improvement from €25 million the previous year, although that's mostly down to writedowns for the overvalued projects of the Chesnais era.

 

Their revenue also declined from €14.9 million to €10.1 over the same period, so the company overall is shrinking, not growing. Drilling down a bit deeper, the games business is growing, but only slowly. It's up from €5.7 million to €7.2 million. Licensing is roughly static, but the Web 3 (i.e. crypto) business and the VCS are basically dead.

 

So, much though some of us might like to believe that they're a rejuvenated brand that's on the verge of blitzscaling their way back into competition with the Big Three, the reality is rather more sobering than that.

 

On the plus side, they have made some pretty good games of late, so I'll wholeheartedly support buying those.

[Flojomojo]

I agree wholeheartedly. I'm interested in Atari for the art, not the business. 

[guppy]

1 hour ago, Matt_B said:

I'd think that Atari stock is like the proverbial dead cat. The only time it's ever going to show much upward movement is in response to a big drop.

 

Still, don't just take my word for it, they're a publicly traded company and produce regular financial reports, the latest of which you can read here:

https://atari-investisseurs.fr/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/Atari-2023-Consolidated-and-Annual-Financial-Statements-F.pdf

 

To cut to the chase, they made a net loss €9.5 million in FY23. That's something of an improvement from €25 million the previous year, although that's mostly down to writedowns for the overvalued projects of the Chesnais era.

 

Their revenue also declined from €14.9 million to €10.1 over the same period, so the company overall is shrinking, not growing. Drilling down a bit deeper, the games business is growing, but only slowly. It's up from €5.7 million to €7.2 million. Licensing is roughly static, but the Web 3 (i.e. crypto) business and the VCS are basically dead.

 

So, much though some of us might like to believe that they're a rejuvenated brand that's on the verge of blitzscaling their way back into competition with the Big Three, the reality is rather more sobering than that.

 

On the plus side, they have made some pretty good games of late, so I'll wholeheartedly support buying those.

You're probably right on all counts. 

 

I didn't buy the stock because I think it's a good investment. Although as low as the price is, and as small as my risk is, I can justify it as a lark and a gamble. 

 

I have no illusion of Atari becoming a "Big Three" contender alongside Nintendo, Microsoft, and Sony. That's ridiculous. Nintendo is very established, and the other two have deep, deep pockets in diverse businesses outside of the gaming industry. Best case, I think that if they manage their legacy well, they can revitalize their core properties, and bring back a style of games of the sort that the early Atari was famous for, perhaps with some modern design concessions and "quality of life" improvements. In my opinion, focusing on the software (games) and not trying to develop a hardware platform is the best way forward for them. 

[+jgkspsx]

6 hours ago, guppy said:

If you have a brokerage account, you can pick up a hundred shares here and there for pocket change, and have more of a voice in the company. 

Which brokerage did you use, if you can say? None of my trading platforms will let me buy it, even though I checked the “I am an idiot and I know I’m going to lose my money” box.

[guppy]

36 minutes ago, jgkspsx said:

Which brokerage did you use, if you can say? None of my trading platforms will let me buy it, even though I checked the “I am an idiot and I know I’m going to lose my money” box.

Fidelity. 

[+jgkspsx]

31 minutes ago, guppy said:

Fidelity. 

Did you have to pay a fee? They want to charge me fifty bucks 😱

[guppy]

4 minutes ago, jgkspsx said:

Did you have to pay a fee? They want to charge me fifty bucks 😱

Yeah. I paid the $50. I figure I'm likely throwing the money away anyway, what's $50.

 

Some will take that same money, buy a 2600+ and some controllers. I got 1000 shares of PONGF. 

[SIO2]

2 hours ago, jgkspsx said:

Which brokerage did you use, if you can say? None of my trading platforms will let me buy it, even though I checked the “I am an idiot and I know I’m going to lose my money” box.

I had that same experience. 

 

I am no financial wizard but my understanding is that they are not listed on an exchange in the US so they trade over the counter.  Is Atari stock something AA could sell?  Just wondering.

 

Maybe just put some in as packing material with orders?  LOL

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by SIO2

[SIO2]

Here I am up late designing new products.

 

What about a new Atari game with a financial theme that is distributed as a gold color physical cart with a genuine share of Atari SA stock?

 

Maybe something like lemonade but instead of selling lemonade you sell video games.  News: There is a retro gaming expo today.  How many E.T. plus cartridges would you like to make?  How many posters?  And so on.

 

If you enter your name as Albert, it unlocks god powers and everything sells out every time.

 

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by SIO2

[Wildstar]

4 hours ago, Matt_B said:

I'd think that Atari stock is like the proverbial dead cat. The only time it's ever going to show much upward movement is in response to a big drop.

 

Still, don't just take my word for it, they're a publicly traded company and produce regular financial reports, the latest of which you can read here:

https://atari-investisseurs.fr/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/Atari-2023-Consolidated-and-Annual-Financial-Statements-F.pdf

 

To cut to the chase, they made a net loss €9.5 million in FY23. That's something of an improvement from €25 million the previous year, although that's mostly down to writedowns for the overvalued projects of the Chesnais era.

 

Their revenue also declined from €14.9 million to €10.1 over the same period, so the company overall is shrinking, not growing. Drilling down a bit deeper, the games business is growing, but only slowly. It's up from €5.7 million to €7.2 million. Licensing is roughly static, but the Web 3 (i.e. crypto) business and the VCS are basically dead.

 

So, much though some of us might like to believe that they're a rejuvenated brand that's on the verge of blitzscaling their way back into competition with the Big Three, the reality is rather more sobering than that.

 

On the plus side, they have made some pretty good games of late, so I'll wholeheartedly support buying those.

The cryptocurrency is a dead end. If they follow news in the U.S. Cryptocurrency, the trust in it, is down. Case note: Sam Bankman-Fried case. This can an issue. Some of Chesnais Era stuff probably needs to be dropped like the Hotel. I think two years ago, it might have been fine and seemed okay at the time the idea first been conceived but the climate relating to cryptocurrency is not so good. Recent bitcoin issues the past couple years should be a red flag concern about continuing on that plan. Elements of crypto tech is fine like blockchain but some of the reason people are using cryptocurrency is basically tax evasion and types of criminal activity.  It happens more in this domain so its kind of raising legal issues. 

 

Atari should focus its efforts on video games. Cut the Atari Token thing. This was something of Chenais Atari Hotel/Gambling casino idea. That's just deadweight sinking the ship. The video game side is growing. That's the positive. As games launch, those sales may increase if they are good games. Improve portfolio of good games for sale on various platforms and if they can triple their game revenue, without increasing there cost next year, they will come out with a positive. Ultimately, the goal should be increase the revenue from games by 6x to 12x by 2025 or 2026. Increasing 7m euros to 70m euros will be a good sign. Drop the Web3. The VCS... maybe. Maintain and improve the Atari store and make perhaps an enhanced AtariOS live distribution that can be used on any PC desktop or laptop with full access to drivers and everything in the LINUX world. The OS has value and the store can be. The initial work and being open enough so it's not VCS specific as well as the store. Once some key issues are resolved, the cost to maintain the distro reduces. Keeping up with the open-source updates. 

 

More important, you want games on the hardware people have like the PC, their smart phones, and mainstream consoles. That makes the games reach a market of 100+ million users. With a wide net, an individual game can garner 100,000 to 1,000,000 copies sold a year.  Back in 1990s to 2000, Infogrames made $200M+ a year for several of those years. This is decent money for a video game company. More than what Bethesda makes a year. It will be impossible to jump to that in a year but increasing revenues incrementally over 5-10 years is conceivable. 

 

[+jgkspsx]

6 hours ago, Wildstar said:

Some of Chesnais Era stuff probably needs to be dropped like the Hotel.

As has been made clear repeatedly,  Atari’s involvement with the hotel project is just licensing the name. It is making them money for doing nothing. It probably is tied to a contract that they would need to pay a penalty for breaking.

[zzip]

17 hours ago, guppy said:

Atari is currently valuated at a little under $70 million USD, with something like 480 million shares outstanding, which is not that much, really, all things considered. If AtariAge forum members all decided to buy a modest amount of the stock, we could become a more influential bloc when it comes to whom Atari SA is beholden to. Instead of complaining that they have to act in the interest of the shareholders, we could become a sizable portion of the shareholders, and then they would have to act in our interests. 

Not a good idea,  the users here would drive Atari to produce exotic, niche, enthusiast hardware that would sell a few hundred units max and bankrupt the company 

[+x=usr(1536)]

14 hours ago, JPF997 said:

Thanks for the information. If I remember correctly he hasn't sold his pongf share's yet because the value is too low, but it's anyone's guess if the stock will actually go up in value at any point in the near future so his share's could end up being worth more or even less depending on  future stock evaluations, not a good place to be in my opinion.

That's flat-out speculation, not investment.  He's basically sitting on the shares hoping that they'll increase in value so that he can cash out as opposed to having a long-term investment strategy for them.

 

It reminds me of the people with a house full of crap, and all the crap will be worth something someday.

[guppy]

1 minute ago, x=usr(1536) said:

That's flat-out speculation, not investment.  

 

It reminds me of the people with a house full of crap, and all the crap will be worth something someday.

That describes the average Atari collector... 

[+x=usr(1536)]

3 minutes ago, guppy said:

That describes the average Atari collector... 

Maybe.  For my part, at least, I'm under no illusions that all this crap will continue to be worth about what I paid for it, possibly even less 

[jerseystyle]

8 hours ago, Wildstar said:

 

 

More important, you want games on the hardware people have like the PC, their smart phones, and mainstream consoles. That makes the games reach a market of 100+ million users. With a wide net, an individual game can garner 100,000 to 1,000,000 copies sold a year.  Back in 1990s to 2000, Infogrames made $200M+ a year for several of those years. This is decent money for a video game company. More than what Bethesda makes a year. It will be impossible to jump to that in a year but increasing revenues incrementally over 5-10 years is conceivable. 

 

I think this is really overstating their potential. The 100+ million consumers thing doesn’t translate to anything (as we learned when Atari used it the first time, and Amico’s famous 1billion consumer market). And to use Bethesda, last year their revenue was 116 million (something like that) which, on the surface, seems a bit low until you realize they earned 100+ million without releasing anything. Last year with all their releases Atari lost like 10 million. So I don’t think those 1 million game sales are as easy to achieve. I think they need to set much smaller goals for themselves and lean into the retro side of things (which they have, so it’s progress). Have any of their releases hit 100k sales? If so that’s a positive for sure.

Edited September 27, 2023 by jerseystyle

[Flojomojo]

10 hours ago, guppy said:

Yeah. I paid the $50. I figure I'm likely throwing the money away anyway, what's $50.

 

Some will take that same money, buy a 2600+ and some controllers. I got 1000 shares of PONGF. 

OMG you could have spent that on another copy of Atari 50 for a friend. Or for yourself. Let me guess: did you also buy an Atari VCS 2021 and trick it out with 32GB of RAM? 

 

I know, I know ... it's your money. And I wish you well. 

6 minutes ago, jerseystyle said:

I think this is really overstating their potential. The 100+ million consumers thing doesn’t translate to anything (as we learned when Atari used it the first time, and Amico’s famous 1billion consumer market). And to use Bethesda, last year their revenue was 116 million (something like that) which, on the surface, seems a bit low until you realize they earned 100+ million without releasing anything. Last year with all their releases Atari lost like 10 million. So I don’t think those 1 million game sales are as easy to achieve. I think they need to set much smaller goals for themselves and lean into the retro side of things (which they have, so it’s progress). Have any of their releases hit 100k sales? If so that’s a positive for sure.

There was at least one quarter when Atari SA made more money from copyright and trademark lawsuits than from selling games. That's facepalm stuff. 

 

Current iteration of Atari has been making interesting acquisitions like Berzerk/Frenzy, M Network Games (the Mattel games remade for Atari systems), and a whole bunch of old Accolade games including Bubsy. They tickle my gamer bone (picture it) but I don't see a strategy there. They also acquired NightDive, which DOES seem strategic, or at least self-serving. Same with the AtariAge acquisition. Not sure how much punch there is in terms of financial value, but it definitely shores up the brand and gives them a little more credibility. 

 

I doubt any individual Atari Recharged title has hit 100K, that's a lot of cheddar. But they also haven't been bundled or put on a desperation discount. I wonder if they can track whether the same people buy their stuff? 

[+x=usr(1536)]

11 minutes ago, Flojomojo said:

I know, I know ... it's your money. And I wish you well. 

Y'know, it's funny, but I've recently been thinking of picking up a nominal amount of PONGF stock.  This has nothing to do with any illusions of it becoming my retirement portfolio or being the launchpad for a lucrative career move into day trading, but rather because it would give me a tiny sliver of skin in the game.

 

This way, the next time someone spouts off about having an opinion regarding an Atari product without actually owning it, I can start my reply to them with, "Speaking as a shareholder in Atari, SA..."  The view from the high horse will be amazing.

[Arno1978]

41 minutes ago, Flojomojo said:

Same with the AtariAge acquisition. Not sure how much punch there is in terms of financial value, but it definitely shores up the brand and gives them a little more credibility.

That's what I warned about in my previous post on page 67. It shouldn't be for shoring up the brand. The acquisition should be soley for the purpose of gaining a historical and cultural asset. Not monetary. Plus, stay on the goodside of the members and they gain valuable feedback and criticism.

 

As for Atari gaining profits, as I said, should look at long term and not short term. The company is small and the brand has a spotty history. While releasing products like Atari 50 is an excellent idea, they are only going to make peanuts off their other products. The collector limited edition carts they made are awesome for sure, but only a handfull of serious collectors will buy them. Hardware sales won't be very profitable either. I'm sure they'll make a bit of money, especially from selling replacement controllers and other parts, but again.. not much. There are so many emulation consoles out there, you could build a house using one of each unit. There's also hardware galore of all kinds out there.

 

The real money maker is in software. Release modern titles under the Arari brand. Rebuild the reputation and get noticed by the general mainstream gaming community. Then you can branch out and do more neat things.

 

Speaking of hardware however, there are still some unique possibilities. I did share an idea with then of replacing aging and dying crt screens for arcade machines and making new monitors as replacements for old computer monitors and even making a 70s/80s style crt tv. As usual no word back and probably dismissing the idea. A while ago I found out about LPD - laser phosphor projection. Almost exactly like CRT, but using lasers and mirrors instead of an electon beam and vacuum tube. I believe it's the technology that could save crt by replacing it with screens with the exact same functionality. And it's safer to boot. The company that owns the technology - Prysm seems oblivious to the gaming community and the dire need to preserve crt gaming. If Atari partnered with them, it would give Atari a unique harware opportunity. They were unique in the 70s and 80s making hardware that could display a game on a tv or monitor. Now they could do something that was the other way around.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Arno1978

[desiv]

Just please don't submit it to the Reddit WallStreetBets group so they can meme stock it...

We don't want to "Gamestop" the new Atari....

 

...

or. do we..

(Kidding, NO!!)

 

[zzip]

52 minutes ago, Flojomojo said:

Current iteration of Atari has been making interesting acquisitions like Berzerk/Frenzy, M Network Games (the Mattel games remade for Atari systems), and a whole bunch of old Accolade games including Bubsy. They tickle my gamer bone (picture it) but I don't see a strategy there. They also acquired NightDive, which DOES seem strategic, or at least self-serving. 

So far the strategy isn't clear, but at least they are diversifying their gaming portfolio

 

Looking at the old IP list they used to post, it's full of games like "Hangman", "Sky Dive", "Bowling" and so on that you can't really build a franchise out of nor would they fit the recharged concept.    Something like Bubsy does have franchise potential should they choose to go that route.

[zzip]

1 hour ago, x=usr(1536) said:

This way, the next time someone spouts off about having an opinion regarding an Atari product without actually owning it, I can start my reply to them with, "Speaking as a shareholder in Atari, SA..."  The view from the high horse will be amazing.

And it would make us part owners in this forum and we get to tell Al how to run it!   

[guppy]

2 hours ago, Flojomojo said:

OMG you could have spent that on another copy of Atari 50 for a friend. Or for yourself. Let me guess: did you also buy an Atari VCS 2021 and trick it out with 32GB of RAM? 

 

I know, I know ... it's your money. And I wish you well. 

 

No, I didn't buy a VCS.  Actually, I spoke out about how it was the wrong move for Atari to pursue at the wrong time, how launching a hardware platform properly was out of their reach, and not their best strategy pretty much any time the topic came up. 

 

It's a bit of a miracle that they did manage to get the VCS launched at all, but I was right that they did not have the resources to do a proper launch -- the project was years late, barely completed, with half-measures in place for a lot of things, and they lacked a catalog of exclusive launch titles that would have justified purchase of what's essentially a commodity PC in a snazzy case. 

 

When you get down to it, the only R&D they actually did to create the VCS was the case, the joysticks, and the software. And somehow that took them way longer than it should have to come to fruition.  And when it did, the software part of it was pretty incomplete at first.

 

They could have sold more software, by skipping the re-invention of the PC, and sold the software to the much larger install base of x86/x64 PC owners, and the profit margins on software are much better when you don't have a loss-leader hardware device that you have to design and manufacture.  And they could have plowed the money they spent on R&D and manufacture into more game development, and sold even more software.

I also thought that their Classic Wireless Joystick design was really cool, though, for whatever that's worth.

  

1 hour ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Y'know, it's funny, but I've recently been thinking of picking up a nominal amount of PONGF stock.  This has nothing to do with any illusions of it becoming my retirement portfolio or being the launchpad for a lucrative career move into day trading, but rather because it would give me a tiny sliver of skin in the game.

 

This way, the next time someone spouts off about having an opinion regarding an Atari product without actually owning it, I can start my reply to them with, "Speaking as a shareholder in Atari, SA..."  The view from the high horse will be amazing.

That pretty well describes my own reason for buying as well. I can tell in the future I'm likely to hear a lot of "Atari SA is beholden to act in the interest of its stock holders, not do what's best for the AtariAge community... " nonsense and so I think my 1000 shares will come in handy at that point. 

 

That said, I do want Atari to succeed as a business. And I want to see them treat the AtariAge community well, and help it to thrive, both for the hobbyist end and for the more commercially aspiring developers. 

 

I want to see Atari embrace "fan games" and remix culture, and be permissive with regard to open licensing of Atari-owned IP for fan projects, and to help fan projects to cross over to commercial release if the desire and potential is there, under terms that are friendly towards the independent homebrew developer, to the mutual benefit of Atari, the developer community, and the gamers/fans.

 

I get that even Atari don't own the rights to everything and can't approve of projects that would leave them liable for infringement of IP they don't have ownership or license to. So they can't continue the practice of infringing on those properties, obviously.

 

But I do hope Atari will be agreeable to acting like I'm advocating, and it seems like they are pretty open to it, based on what Albert and Trogdor have been saying.

Edited September 27, 2023 by guppy

[JPF997]

12 minutes ago, guppy said:

That pretty well describes my own reason for buying as well. I can tell in the future I'm likely to hear a lot of "Atari SA is beholden to act in the interest of its stock holders, not do what's best for the AtariAge community... " nonsense and so I think my 1000 shares will come in handy at that point. 

 

That said, I do want Atari to succeed as a business. And I want to see them treat the AtariAge community well, and help it to thrive, both for the hobbyist end and for the more commercially aspiring developers. 

 

I want to see Atari embrace "fan games" and remix culture, and be permissive with regard to open licensing of Atari-owned IP for fan projects, and to help fan projects to cross over to commercial release if the desire and potential is there, under terms that are friendly towards the independent homebrew developer, to the mutual benefit of Atari, the developer community, and the gamers/fans.

 

I get that even Atari don't own the rights to everything and can't approve of projects that would leave them liable for infringement of IP they don't have ownership or license to. So they can't continue the practice of infringing on those properties, obviously.

 

But I do hope Atari will be agreeable to acting like I'm advocating, and it seems like they are pretty open to it, based on what Albert and Trogdor have been saying.

Ever since Wade Rosen took over one of Atari SA's main priorities has been to reacquire all the ip's that the company has had to sell to others over the years and they've largely succeeded in doing so, the only ip's that have not been reacquired yet (besides Battlezone) are those held hostage by Warner ( the Atari Games one's like gauntlet and paperboy ), those unfortunately are still way out of Atari SA's reach, even if Warner doesn't do anything with them these days they would still prefer to keep them instead of selling them unless they're offered a quantity of money that will probably far  exceed the real value of those dead ip's.

[guppy]

13 minutes ago, JPF997 said:

Ever since Wade Rosen took over one of Atari SA's main priorities has been to reacquire all the ip's that the company has had to sell to others over the years and they've largely succeeded in doing so, the only ip's that have not been reacquired yet (besides Battlezone) are those held hostage by Warner ( the Atari Games one's like gauntlet and paperboy ), those unfortunately are still way out of Atari SA's reach, even if Warner doesn't do anything with them these days they would still prefer to keep them instead of selling them unless they're offered a quantity of money that will probably far  exceed the real value of those dead ip's.

There's a lot that Atari don't own, and never will, or at least not in any foreseeable future that is likely to happen.  In the 80s, they were able to use their power as the market leader to obtain licenses to port many non-Atari arcade games:  Space Invaders, Defender, Pac-Man, the list goes on.  The ins and outs of all those deals must be a labyrinth.  

Today, Bandai-Namco owns the rights to Pac-Man, as well as many other classic titles and trademarks.  Bally-Williams owns a lot of classic arcade era IPs: Defender, Robotron 2084, etc.  Activision is another one.  Etc.

 

It's unlikely Atari would ever acquire any of these, but they're attractive for homebrew/hobbyists to dabble with.  Never-were projects like Champ Games' "homages" to Zookeeper and Galaga and Robotron.  And "shoulda been" projects like Pac-Man 8k that improve over the official release of some game.  There are a lot of games that either did once get a release on Atari legacy platforms, or never did but would have been attractive if they had, that Atari once had (in all likelihood limited) publishing rights to and very likely no longer continue to hold rights to.  The AtariAge homebrew community could/does/did work on projects to do ports for "missing" games from the Atari 2600 library, or do better ports, or do mods, or sequels.  

Atari can only give permission to use what they themselves have the ownership rights to, which isn't nothing, but it's not everything.