AR: City - FlashCart / Stage 2

[Xebec's Demise]

See, if character backups are allowed, then even the Death Traps are meaningless. They are not really death traps anymore if they do not cause death, right?

 

Allowing backups of characters essentially gives everyone the option to become invulnerable and if desired, a character will never die.

 

Philip Price was a smart guy, I would bet you anything that he did not originally intend to allow players to make endless backups of their characters. This only lessens his marvelous game. It was likely that Datasoft encouraged him to allow it.

 

If you never have a chance of losing, then winning really means nothing.

 

If you never die, then survival is trivial.

 

Because Alternate Reality: The City is mainly about survival, character backups defeat the purpose of the game.

 

When I made character backups as a kid, I never died. Every single character I created always survived to the point where nothing could kill me anymore and the game offered no challenge. This is because every time that I actually was supposed to die, I just loaded up my last character backup and continued playing. I soon lost my interest and appreciation for playing the game.

 

See my point?

Edited June 1, 2005 by Xebec's Demise

[danwinslow]

Well, make it all optional. That way, if you want to play hardcore, you can. If you don't, you don't have to. Forcing a particular playstyle on other people because you think its the best way, or even the original way, doesn't seem like the thing to do. Not every body is going to feel the same way you do about backups.

[Xebec's Demise]

If it's optional, with no consequence, I guarantee, everyone will use it. Why? Because there is no consequence to doing so, it's beneficial and makes the game easier. Nobody wants to make things harder on themselves if they have an option, especially in games.

 

It would be like playing monopoly and asking everyone whether or not they want the option of $1000 for Passing Go or to stay with the standard $200. All the players are going to accept the $1000 for passing go, even if it alters the intended gameplay. What player is going to be stupid enough to turn it down, that would be foolish of them because they would be disadvantaged.

 

It would not force anyone to do anything nor force a "playstyle" upon anybody. The game and the gameplay would remain exactly the same whether you could back up your character or not. It would only make the game more realistic, more of an Alternate Reality, and more challenging; and as a result, people would appreciate their accomplishments and the overall game more.

 

That is a good thing.

Edited June 2, 2005 by Xebec's Demise

[danwinslow]

Well, *you* think its a good thing. That doesn't mean its a good thing to everybody. Not everyone feels the same as you do about these matters, is all I am saying. If you are saying, "well, they should", then I guess I don't know what to say to that.

[Xebec's Demise]

This is not about "feelings" or opinions.

 

The fact is, the less challenging a game is, the less rewarding it is to play. This applies to everyone, including you. If a game is easy or easier for you, for whatever reason, then you are not going to find the game as interesting or rewarding to play as one that is more challenging for you.

 

This is because, by definition, a game is a challenge.

 

In this case, you may already find Alternate Reality: The City to be extremely challenging, but this could only be the case, if you do not make regular backups of your character. If you do make regular backups of your character, then you will never die or lose. This removes the challenge of playing the game and turns it into a task instead. Because no matter how many times you "die" you are never really dead. All you have to do is boot up from your last backup and continue. If you continue to make regular backups, eventually you will have an invincible character. Not because you learned to play the game and adjusted to all the combined challenges the game was offereing for you, but mainly based upon the fact that you know how to copy a disk and reboot, which is nothing to really be appreciated at all.

 

Besides, if you just wanted to learn about the game, you could always play with the disk images, making as many backups as you want, so that you never die. Then when you feel you are proficient you could make your real cartridge character. Or why not just start with the cartridge alltogether, so that you learn to play the game in a manner that allows you to survive to begin with, rather than using the crutch of backups.

 

It would also be better if the cartridge offered something different, something more challenging and advanced, otherwise, the only difference is that the cartridge version saves disk swaps.

Edited June 2, 2005 by Xebec's Demise

[classics]

It seems like people who dont want to have restores can just excercise self control.

 

I dont see the point in trying to force people to play without character backups if its possible to make them and people want them.

[Xebec's Demise]

Just because people may want things does not mean that you should give them away. People always want cheats, look at all the sights devoted to them, its always possible to make all kinds of cheats or modifications to games to make them easier, but that does not mean that you should. People may want them, but it does not help the game nor the people that want them, in the longrun. If you have the opportunity to lessen cheats, then it should be done.

 

Backups cheat death in AR, because AR is about survival, backups cheat AR.

 

If you were creating a Pac-Man cartridge, would you try to eliminate any cheating or encourage it? Would it be a good idea to allow players to backup their Pac-Man game from any point they desired, at any time, and resume play from that point or any other point as often as necessary to make it to the next level or obtain a maximum score?

 

Would you then just tell those that want to fairly compete in Pac-Man and experience the game for what it really is or to compete fairly for a high-score to excercise self-control?

 

Of course not!

 

Just because AR players are used to backing up characters does mean that this feature is good for the game or the players. It really is a form of cheating.

 

So, I completely disagree with you. It should be eliminated if possible. It would not be "forcing" anyone to do anything. It would only be improving the game experience and challenge and whether people want backups or not, everyone would appreciate the cartridge version of the game more.

Edited June 2, 2005 by Xebec's Demise

[Velcro_SP]

It seems like people who dont want to have restores can just excercise self control.

 

I dont see the point in trying to force people to play without character backups if its possible to make them and people want them.

866168[/snapback]

 

Well, no-one "forces" anyone to do anything. You can play the game if you want or not. IMO, the game play should be as close to the original as possible, with the fairly obvious exception of eliminating the wait time for disk access. And even in the case of the disk access waiting, if there were instances, as I think there might be, where the wait was used as a segue or pause for effect before entering a new location or facing a new encounter or whatever, I would support coding the pause back in, however this should be used sparingly and only where appropriate, because Philip Price did not intentionally beat gamers over the head with waiting, it was incidental to the technology, although I think there were cases where he strategically placed the waiting.

 

As for the question of allowing character backups... AR: City has a high difficulty level. I came back after years to play and was surprised I keep losing new characters. But that is the nature of the game. It means that much more when you advance a character a bit, because several have died. Now if I could save the character to disk, then reload every time he or she dies, indeed my first character would live on as long as I chose and I would never need others. I wouldn't have to try again repeatedly, that part of the gaming would be eliminated. The problem is that that trying again was a big part of the AR experience.

 

So in my opinion, the cart should be faithful to the original and not allow character backups that allow reload after the character dies.

[densonj]

It seems like people who dont want to have restores can just excercise self control.

 

I dont see the point in trying to force people to play without character backups if its possible to make them and people want them.

866168[/snapback]

 

I agree, and since Character Backups was a feature of the original game I don't see why it shouldn't be included now as well.

[Goochman]

The thing about AR is the backup was a good way to discourage folks from constantly replaying certain parts for a desired outcome. AR was made in such a way that is encouraged you to go as far as you could before stopping and making a backup IMHO.

 

Just because you can make a backup doesnt make this game any easier - You have to stop playing before you can backup and if you die you lose everything you gained since playing.

 

I disagree that backing up a char is cheating - Modifying attributes and stats via monitors is cheating.

 

It would be interesting to get PPs perspective on why he put in this 'death' clause since the game clearly is difficult to complete 25% of the way on 1 life.

[danwinslow]

Xebec - it's a *game*, man, not a religious experience.

[Xebec's Demise]

Allow me to explain why I feel so strongly about Alternate Reality and only want the best for this game.

 

It is not because of Atari that I am here, although I love the nostalgia of collecting and playing Atari 8-bits, it is Alternate Reality that caused me to do a spur of the moment search, to return to this wonderful message forum so that I might discuss and play the game with others.

 

For me, Alternate Reality: The City is my absolute favorite game of all time. I grew up with this game and it is the only game that has continued to interest and amaze me even twenty years after it's release. I have played many games over these two decades, but there is only one that keeps calling me back home time and time again, Alternate Reality: The City for Atari 8-bit.

 

The reason why? Alternate Reality is so complex, realistic and challenging. It's like no other game I have ever played. Philip Price was dedicated and committed to making the most believable game environment possible, an actual alternate reality for people to play, keeping it as true to life as possible and squeezing every little bit out of the computers of that time in order to do so.

 

In Alternate Reality, there is reputation and alignment that actually affects the way the game reacts to you, delusion, use based improvement, multiple diseases and incubation periods, the necessity to eat, drink, sleep and seek shelter or dress appropriately for the weather, drunkenness that actually causes you to black in and out and stumble about and even the way you dress may have an effect on the way the game reacts to you. There is a virtual clock and calendar by which the sun rises and sets and the seasons arrive to. And there is perma-death.

 

All of these features make the game as realistic as possible, a virtual reality.

 

Now, is the ability to backup your life and restart over and over again from a specific point in your life consistent with the spirit of Alternate Reality? Absolutely not! Everything about the game is realistic except for this backup activity, which by-the-way is done outside the Alternate Reality game world. Death is one of the most sure things about life. To not have death is to not have life. Without death you do not have much of a virtual reality at all. What is the point in having perma-death if you can easily skirt around it by making backups? Backups completely violate the integrity of the Alternate Reality virtual world.

 

Recently, what has made me appreciate this game so much more is the Alternate Reality Player Competition that we are having here at Atari Age. One of the rules is that you cannot backup your character. This is for obvious reasons. It would not be a fair competition, nor a competition at all, if players were allowed to make backups. Your skill at playing the game would not be represented, only your skill and patience in pressing the "S" key and making regular Saves.

 

This has made the game so much more entertaining and challenging and as a result I have put much more care, strategy and devotion into my characters. Not only has it given me a newfound appreciation for the game, but also a newly discovered respect for Philip Price as a game designer and a much greater affection for my characters. If you have a real possibility of losing a character, then you will appreciate them all the more. You appreciate your survival and game time within AR all the more also. This is true of anything though, the easier it is to lose something, the more it will be appreciated.

 

I only want the best for Alternate Reality. Thus, I have given my advice. Do not allow character backups in the cartridge version.

Edited June 2, 2005 by Xebec's Demise

[danwinslow]

Xebec - ok, thank you. Now I understand why you feel so strongly about AR. What I still don't get is why you feel that gives you the desire to control how other people should play. What it boils down to is that you are objecting to the lack of perma-death, not just for yourself, but FOR OTHERS too. Not only is it sort of egomaniacal of you, but it's impractical too. If people want to hack up the game such that its easier to play, well then they just will anyways, and actually already HAVE. In fact, I think I'll patch in Barney bitmaps just to annoy you!

 

But seriously, I understand your objection to a beloved thing being changed...but you cannot prevent it, and shouldn't try. It is not your private territory, and never was.

[Shawn Jefferson]

This is not about "feelings" or opinions.

 

I think it clearly is.

 

This is because, by definition, a game is a challenge.

 

Some people get enough challenge at work, or just day to day. Some people play games to escape, to be entertained. They don't want a next to impossible challenge. They are turned off by games that are too difficult early on, and from what I remember of playing AR, it is quite difficult in the early stages.

 

Some people play games to have fun, and fun for them isn't defined by conquering the "challenge" of staying alive for more than five minutes.

 

It would also be better if the cartridge offered something different, something more challenging and advanced, otherwise, the only difference is that the cartridge version saves disk swaps.

 

Isn't that enough?

 

Anyone can still play without making a character backup if they so desire. I see no good reason to remove that ability. Even a seperate utility that you run to extract and insert your character onto the cartridge would be an added bonus. It need not be on the actual cartridge.

[Xebec's Demise]

 

What you are asking for is a watered down version, which already exists, along with all kinds of cheats like character editors and guild skill gain cheats as a result of backups.

 

The cartridge is an opportunity to minimize all these cheats.

 

Here is a tip for you, if you play the game as a good aligned character, you will find it much easier. That means no killing neutral beings such as muggers and fighters, unless you wait until they swing at you first. I just started doing this myself, and it has made the game much easier than having all beings and guards attack you on sight. All you have to worry about is the evil creatures and you can avoid them by avoiding rain and dark.

 

If you are looking for a game to veg out to, that has very little challenge, then you should not be playing AR to begin with. There are hundreds of other simple, easy, thoughtless games you could enjoy.

Edited June 3, 2005 by Xebec's Demise

[Trooper]

I simply can't see the problem. We're all grownups, it's as simple as this: If you feel like cheating when you're playing a game with yourself then cheat, if you don't want to cheat then, by all means, don't.

 

I don't see why it's so bad that the possibility to backup your character would be in the game? Why are you supposed to decide that, just because you don't want to be able to backup your character, noone else should have the oppurtunity to do so either?

 

/Troop

[Xebec's Demise]

If you cheat you will not appreciate the game as much, I just want everyone to appreciate Alternate Reality as much as possible, in it's purest form. You will find new challenge and rewards in an AR that you cannot cheat. This became apparent quickly with the AR Competition.

 

For adults you sure sound like a bunch of whiney kids afraid that your cheats will be taken away.

 

 

If you like to cheat, you can always play the disk based version and cheat to your little heart's content. I know that won't happen though, because the fun of cheating is short-lived and the newness and fun of cheating AR died long ago, which is one reason you are not playing AR currently and "enjoying" cheating.

 

However, if Wrathchild has the foresight to not allow cheats, on the cartridge version, I bet we will find you playing it along with everyone else! Yet, ironically, you are not likely to play the disk based version that allows cheats or even as likely to play a cartridge version that allows cheats. When was the last time you were intrerested in playing the cheatable version? That's what I thought...

 

If the game is difficult to cheat, then there will be posts here stating, "Wow, this really is a hard game, any tips?" And "Check it out, I finally survived to level 8!" This will not happen if the cheats are allowed, because if someone feels it's too hard for them, they will just cheat instead of taking the time to discuss it here, reading the AR websites or learning to play. And nobody will really care if you make it to level 8, because everyone will make it to level 8 if they want to, by cheating.

 

It's human nature. We almost always take the easy path if one exists.

Edited June 3, 2005 by Xebec's Demise

[Trooper]

But I really can't see why you are the one who's been appointed to make sure that everyone appreciates the game the same way you do? I may enjoy playing the game without dying all the time having to start all over again, how come you should be the one to say I can't? If I on the other hand feel I want the challenge of being able to die all the time, well then I simply won't use the backup feature. I like having the choice since I, like I said before, is an adult and want to decide for myself in what way I should enjoy the game. Well play the disk based version, you say. Why shouldn't I be allowed to take advantage of the decrease in load times? Who died and made you the master of all gameplay and the one who can say how we should be playing our games?

 

/Troop

[analmux]

Well, I thought that AR was a neverending game, so it doesn't matter if you're able to play the game faster i.e. shorter loading times and backups.

 

I say AR is an amazing game w.r.t. techniques and looks but IMHO it has a little lack of playability: I never enjoyed playing this game just because of the slow speed and the endless disk swapping. I never played this game for longer than 15 minutes.

 

Maybe a flashcart version AND the ability to backup characters will make me to love AR

 

So I say: if AR gets harder it definitely is not going to make me like AR better.

[Xebec's Demise]

Just like any other game, if you learn how to play AR, then you will be able to do well and survive. You should not depend on backups in lieu of learning how to play. If you have any trouble, please ask me for help, I would be more than happy to give you tips for surviving those first critical levels. But, please don't cry for a nerf of a chance for this incredible game to finally become a complete alternate reality instead of a cheat fest.

 

I am ready to money where my mouth is, are you?

 

Wrathchild, do you have a paypal account that you can either post for donations or send by PM so that I can make an inital donation for your efforts? I truly do appreciate the work you are doing on this!

Edited June 4, 2005 by Xebec's Demise

[Trooper]

I am STILL looking for an answer to the question: "Why should YOU be the one to decide weather or not I can "cheat" when playing a game".

 

Tell me WHY I shouldn't, as an adult, be the one to decide weather or not I shall make a backup of my character?

 

About putting my money where my mouth is, well no, I'm not about to pay for the development of this product until it is released. Of course, if you were the one paying for the development of said product or if you were the one DOING the development of aisd product you would also be the one deciding weather to have "cheat" possibilities in the product or not.

 

In this case it's of course Wrathchild who's the one deciding if you should be able to backup your character or not, on the other hand I'm sure that Wrathchild would want to ask the potential buyers (thereby not stating that I'd be one of them) what they want. But like I said, this is something that's really up to Wrathchild to decide.

 

/Troop

[Xebec's Demise]

For the very same reason that game developers try to minimize the cheating of their games. So what if you are an adult, as far as cheating goes, game developers do no care if you are an adult, 13 years old or even 90. Just because you want to cheat does not mean you should get to. The less cheats that a game has, the better off it will be in the long-run and that is why, if possible, they should be minimized.

 

Besides that, are you really much of an AR fan anyway? You don't sound like you are even going to make a donation for a copy.

 

I am a true AR fan. I will make a donation for a copy; I have already pledged a $100 donation for the success of the effort with character SAVES (not backups).

Edited June 4, 2005 by Xebec's Demise

[classics]

Xebec, you're obviously very passionate about AR. We all appriciate that and understand your point, but lets not turn Marks hard work into something negative by having a big fight over it.

 

We can just agree to disagree for the moment on backups and see how things progress.

[Goochman]

Xebec, you're obviously very passionate about AR.  We all appriciate that and understand your point, but lets not turn Marks hard work into something negative by having a big fight over it.

 

We can just agree to disagree for the moment on backups and see how things progress.

867893[/snapback]

 

I disagree on your agree to disagree, therfore agreeing to disagree again.

 

Oh,

Wraithchild - how goes it?

 

I hope anything with regard to load/unload chars(or disk per se) could be used for hte Ultima IV image and others in the future. Id love to get the U4 image with my own characters loaded

[danwinslow]

Well, I disagree. Just, you know, in general kinda.