AR: City - FlashCart / Stage 2

[Heaven/TQA]

oh boys... Xebec... what about playing it in atari800win and make save states????

 

or like i did in the past... copy your character disc with a sector copier...so what?

 

it's a game.... i mean you can connect your atari to your heart directly and maybe mark can incorporate a special logic into the cart where you get a heart attack when finally beating the dust... just kidding...

[Xebec's Demise]

oh boys... Xebec... what about playing it in atari800win and make save states????

 

or like i did in the past... copy your character disc with a sector copier...so what?

 

it's a game.... i mean you can connect your atari to your heart directly and maybe mark can incorporate a special logic into the cart where you get a heart attack when finally beating the dust... just kidding...

868359[/snapback]

 

Yeah, well, that's the point. Obviously you missed it.

 

I agree with you, you can already very easily cheat everything in AR with Atari800win save states and by making character backups and then editing them.

 

Therefore, why not have the cartridge version be as difficult to cheat as possilbe so that it offers a new challenge to everyone, encouraging everyone to play the game rather than cheat it and offering a new different advanced version of AR instead of the one we are used to.

 

This would make the cartridge version more fun to play, more desireable and more interesting. It would be a greater success than making a duplicate of what we already have.

 

A game that you can easily cheat is never as captivating and re-playable as one that you cannot.

[densonj]

Actually, as far as I know, the "Save State" feature in Atari800Win(Plus) does not function properly with AR City because of the "temporary writes" to disk during gameplay. Isn't this correct?

[Wilheim]

I followed the discussion here, and everyone has put their respective arguments to use one option or another.

 

My opinion on this is simple: to think what Philip Price would do if he wanted to make a cart version on 1985. Just to preserve the original idea of it.

[smartwhois]

when is this cart coming out?

 

didnt read all...but i am playing the game right now and i agree with zebec...

 

if it was up to pp...i bet he would not have backups...since he has stuff that is so real...like diseases that can kill you...having to eat and drink and sleep ...alcohol that can really mess you up...posison that can kill you...and other stuff that is lke real life like personality and reputation...the death should be real too

 

i vote for no extra copies of your dude...just the one...the real one that you can save to play again...

 

laters

 

...back to AR trying to make it past lvl 3

 

p.s. is there som place where i can still buy this game?

[Heaven/TQA]

i still prefer a cart version with saves on the flash... (backup or not) simply because i have no 1050 connected... or maybe i can use my sio2pc setup... but still a simple 800xl + cart could be fun and kind of "console" approach... remember... would it not be possible to play AR on atari consoles like the xe game machines?

[smartwhois]

damn! just died!

 

ya...that would pwn!!11

 

all you will need is your atari and the AR cart...some beers...and some friends...and have a good ole AR battle ot see who can get the farthest...

 

lol...plus you could carry your char around with you on the cart...in your pocket...lol... and take him to a friends house to play...or an atari show...to show of f your char to everyone...thats why i dont want backups...now that i think about it...

 

if tehre was backups...you would never know if some guys char he ws showing you on his cart was a cheat or real...you know how everyone likes to brag that they caught a 30 pound fish...when it was really only 2 pounds...lol

[analmux]

I know the solution:

 

there should be two versions of the game

 

1) with character backup: for people who need this

2) without character backup: for people who don't want to cheat

 

....then if someone is bragging about his progress you could simply look at his cartridge and say: "but this is a cartridge with backup!!...you cheater!!!", otherwise you say: "welldone mister {name}".

 

...another (maybe easier) solution: you can show a counter on screen that displays the number of backups you made. The non-cheaters will have a zero-counter which should not be displayed....to make it look like the original game

 

..........

 

I can understand why people don't want to cheat....but I must say that when a game is very hard but also very well designed (f.e. on a NES or Gameboy emulator you may always save states) I didn't want to spend my time being annoyed by dying all the time...I wanted to go on, just to enjoy the great designs of the worlds/graphics/music....which I'd otherwise not be able to get my hands on. I must say that I hate hard games just because you have to start all over again when your character dies. So a game which I normally wouldn't even play I can play till the end by saving states, and then I can say: "yes I agree to all people who have made it till the end: it is a hard game...but it's also very beautiful!"....so cheating gives me the possibility to enjoy the games that I normally would even play...I'd never say that I've got this or that far in a game to impress people when I've in fact cheated my way to that point...NEVER.

 

For A.R. it's a totally different story: there's no end to this game (as far as I understand) and if someone says that he has got to a certain point (f.e. level 6 or something) then I would always be curious if the person in question has cheated or not. If you display a number of backups counter then you can ask that person if he wants to power up the game and show it.....seems solved now.

 

....the honour would indeed be for the ones that didn't cheat....

[Xebec's Demise]

I like the idea. Now we are thinking.

 

I wonder if only having a counter would make it pretty easy to hack though. Just make a editor to change the few bits storing the backup counter and then you could claim that you never made backups. That would be as simple as changing a few bits of info.

 

So I would lean towards having two seperate versions, if there was no other way than to compromise. I still truly believe that a single cartridge with no backups would be the most successful.

 

Having a seperate cartridge that had the backup ability would make it easier to hack the one that did not becuase the backup code would already be there, ready to use.

 

As far as cheating in AR goes, you are right! Because there are no extra screens or levels that a player may want to cheat to get to just in order to see them, I don't think there is any reason for someone to need a backup other than to just outright cheat.

 

Oooo! Another thought, whether there were two versions of the cartridge or not it would be cool if there was a watermark, logo or graphical difference somewhere on the screen or in the corner of only the cartridge version that did not allow cheating. That way, when you took a photo or screenshot of your uncheated character, people could see that you were playing on the non-cheat version.

 

Maybe a small routine to allow screenshots of the cartridge play to be saved in the cartridge or on disk would be a fun addition too!

 

Overall, though, people that really want to appreciate and play UO are not going to want a cheatable version that would comparitively lessen the challenge, their fun or the sharing of their efforts with other players in any way. I might have thought differently too, if I had not started this AR Player Competition. I may have also wanted cheats. But after much experience playing the game recently and discussing it with others, the best choice is clear, no cheats at all, but instead added features:

 

1. Watermark or logo

2. Normal game access to the two extra guilds.

3. Access to the "Closed by order of The Palace" establishments.

4. Incorporate the two missing Weapon's Trainers that are on the disk, but do not have locations on the map.

5. Screenshot utility.

6. Cartridge label design/layout

Edited June 7, 2005 by Xebec's Demise

[Wrathchild]

Wrathchild - how goes it?

Just back home after a holiday, will catch up on people ideas/comments and choose the next objectives for a release and get back to coding (also depends on what work has in store for me upon returning )

[danwinslow]

I suggest you quit your job.

[Wrathchild]

I suggest you quit your job.

869888[/snapback]

They just promoted me from a technical project leader to technical manager

Unfortuately a bit more responsibility with that

Hopefully it won't interfere too much with the A8 development though

 

Kind regards,

Mark

[Xebec's Demise]

Welcome back!

 

...You are now joined!

 

(danwinslow is right, you should quit your job...get permission from PP to program all the expansions for AR, design them specifically for 8mb cartridges, set up a fully automated ordering website to sell them for $49.95 each and release them serialized and in limited editions, stock them at a third party shipper, make sure your site is top rated for "Alternate Reality" and "Atari" searches on the search engines and enjoy the rest of your life at home relaxing with your family)

 

 

 

Oh, did I mention you might need to build a time machine to take you back to about 1986. If not, sorry.

Edited June 7, 2005 by Xebec's Demise

[analmux]

I like the idea.  Now we are thinking.

 

I wonder if only having a counter would make it pretty easy to hack though.  Just make a editor to change the few bits storing the backup counter and then you could claim that you never made backups

 

........whatever........

 

It's not easier to hack a counter than to hack the whole character information or write your own backup routines...

 

remember we'll want to play AR on a cartridge on a real atari where we don't have some kind of memory/machine language monitor to change registers e.a.

 

...so while a stupid person is only hacking the backup counter, a smarter one would also increase copper, strength and hit points... you see, yo can always speculate about what cheating a hacker can do, and they should do those things if they want to, for they themselves know that they deserve no honour. You should consider that even if you can not make any backups, then there will always be a clever coder that will make his own backup routine....so in fact you can NEVER trust anyone.

[Wrathchild]

would it not be possible to play AR on atari consoles like the xe game machines?

Er, no. The menus require key presses to pick an option - it's certainly too much work to rewrite those routines.

Needless to say I did think I was stuck inside the Bank until I read the instructions and realised that you have to use the joystick to walk out backwards.

[Xebec's Demise]

...so while a stupid person is only hacking the backup counter, a smarter one would also increase copper, strength and hit points...    you see, yo can always speculate about what cheating a hacker can do, and they should do those things if they want to, for they themselves know that they deserve no honour. You should consider that even if you can not make any backups, then there will always be a clever coder that will make his own backup routine....so in fact you can NEVER trust anyone.

870436[/snapback]

 

I like your idea, I was only trying to speculate what might happen. I wonder if there would be an easy, yet, effective way to encode both the counter and the character disk? What do you think?

 

Is there a way to protect the game that would be more trouble for someone to hack than it would be worth? Such as encoding the character disk or putting the game on a regular cartridge?

 

I guess if it is on a flash cartridge, it would be simple to transfer to an image and edit? Are there any other options? Specifically cartridges that have a larger label?

 

If the cartridge can be made fairly secure and uncheatable, I think it would be really fun for A8 and AR fans to have a permanent website where they could immortalize their characters and share them with others. I would maintain a "highscore" list of player's characters and a small forum to share AR stories, tips and tricks. Or it could be done right here on Atari Age I suppose. I never meant for the AR competition to be a regular part of the HSC and end. I would like it to be perpetual.

 

It would just be great to share the nostalgia of playing AR with other Atari fans and always be able to save and take your character around with you to Atari events, on a durable little cartridge.

 

So, I have bigger plans for the AR cartridge than just getting the game on cartridge. Maybe you can better understand why I am so interested in it?

Edited June 8, 2005 by Xebec's Demise

[danwinslow]

Well, why don't we just have you interview people that want to play, and if you approve of their devotion you can let them use a kiosk, where you can watch them play and monitor their behavior for any non-Xebec approved activity?

[analmux]

I like your idea, I was only trying to speculate what might happen.  I wonder if there would be an easy, yet, effective way to encode both the counter and the character disk? What do you think?

 

I think you can use the same technique that's already being used in scrambling the character data (as far as it is scrambled/protected), and I think this should be a good enough protection, as it's the original protection (which is IMHO good enough). The backup counter could be regarded as an extra 'stat'.

 

Is there a way to protect the game that would be more trouble for someone to hack than it would be worth?  Such as encoding the character disk or putting the game on a regular cartridge?

 

No, whether hacking is worth it is a personal choice, some people would sacrifice a whole year of hacking just to cheat a game, others wouldn't, so no one can tell you if it's worth it or not. And another thing: the protection has already been hacked, and even if you have a new protection system, it will soon be hacked again, so I (personally) don't think it's worth it to spend more time on a better protection.

 

I guess if it is on a flash cartridge, it would be simple to transfer to an image and edit?

 

Yes, it is easy. Well, you always want to save your character, so you always need a flashrom or floppy or whatever. There will always be a clever person that can modify, just as easy as the AR program is able to modify....I think we're now heading towards a circular discussion about protection systems: all protections have a weak point. Big companies such as microsoft have now spent many years on protecting their programs against all kinds of virus attacks....they're still not at the end of the story...

 

If the cartridge can be made fairly secure and uncheatable

 

I don't think you can produce an uncheatable cartridge, so I think you should give up on this.

 

I think it would be really fun for A8 and AR fans to have a permanent website where they could immortalize their characters and share them with others.  I would maintain a "highscore" list of player's characters and a small forum to share AR stories, tips and tricks.  Or it could be done right here on Atari Age I suppose.  I never meant for the AR competition to be a regular part of the HSC and end.  I would like it to be perpetual.

 

It would just be great to share the nostalgia of playing AR with other Atari fans and always be able to save and take your character around with you to Atari events, on a durable little cartridge.

 

So, I have bigger plans then for the AR cartridge than just getting the game on cartridge.  Maybe you can better understand why I am so interested in it?

870617[/snapback]

 

Yes, sounds like a great idea, so keep up the work.

But I think it's all a matter of trust. It would be a totally different story if you want to give money to the best AR player of 2005 (for example ), then there's a big chance that the best cheater might win. Honour differs a lot from just money: people don't cheat for such an abstract thing as honour, because you can't eat honour.

 

When we focus this discussion about cheating and protection on A.R.:

Cheating on backups can be regarded as a cheat on stats. If someone hacks f.e. the amount of copper, then it's also cheating, but I don't think you can create a perfect/ideal character (by cheating stats) just because the notion of 'playing A.R. the right way' is too vague.

 

Now back to your plan Xebec: When you keep track of a highscore list, then only A.R. players that used a cartridge could take part isn't it? Because everyone else (like me who has the original floppy version) can make backups, so would be cheaters.

[andylama]

(coming out of lurk mode for a moment)

 

Dear Xebec's Demise,

 

I hear your concerns, and appreciate your viewpoint, HOWEVER, your arguments smack of wanting to protect people from themselves to uphold some kind of altruistic ideal. Why bother? Why would you want to play Morality Police, especially for a video game, and a 20-year-old one at that, for God's sake?

 

Case in point: I'm a huge fan of HalfLife2 on my PC, and though there are innumerable cheats out there, I have ZERO INTEREST in them. I wanted to experience the entire 'alternate reality' created by that game, as envisioned by the creators, with all the risks and dangers (and spectacular deaths!). It's not even a matter of self-restraint. I don't need to restrain myself from crippling the game to slog pointlessly through the game as an invincible god-man. Obviously, there would be no fun in that, ergo, no desire.

 

Those who cheat at games are (a) not playing for the experience, they are playing to WIN WIN WIN, and (b) going to cheat and hack and cheat anyway, and furthermore © probably kids anyway, and kids are gonna do whatever the hell they want, in spite of your idealistic intentions. If the fools want to have a crippled non-experience...LET 'EM. Frankly, screw 'em!

 

My argument is that your argument holds validity, but hardly seems to apply to this particular game and the demographic of people who are actually going to bother playing it. Why not apply your passion to real crimes, like identity theft or fighting spam email or something?

 

Hope you didn't see my post as an attack or even a challenge; it isn't--just another viewpoint to (hopefully) consider.

 

Sincerely,

 

Andy Hutson

8-bit fan since 1982

 

p.s. I played AR way back when it was fairly new. I remember being astonished by the graphics...and dying a lot. I didn't mind the dying. I'd love to re-experience this game, with or without the damned cheatproofing.

 

Cheers to the guys who are doing this project!

[densonj]

Needless to say I did think I was stuck inside the Bank until I read the instructions and realised that you have to use the joystick to walk out backwards. 

869812[/snapback]

 

You can also just press the "k" key to back-out of the bank so you aren't required to have a joystick for playing.

Edited June 8, 2005 by densonj

[Xebec's Demise]

Why bother?

870653[/snapback]

 

*laughs*

 

I just highly appreciate the game, and would like to see the best for it!

 

Sure, there are always those that will cheat, but a game is always better if the cheating or ability to cheat can be kept to a minimum.

 

Join us in the Alternate Reality: The City Competition! Get your character posted, it does not matter how far you make it, the fun is in participating, comparing characters, enjoying the nostalgia and appreciating the game. Hope to see you there!

Edited June 8, 2005 by Xebec's Demise

[Xebec's Demise]

You can also just press the "k" key to back-out of the bank so you aren't required to have a joystick for playing.

870662[/snapback]

 

That does not work. You have to use a joystick (or a key programmed for joystick down in an emulator.

[analmux]

...oh yes.....remember that A.R. was originally released on floppys which already had a very hard protection (done by a group of very professional coders): some cheater (also very clever) made it possible for YOU Xebec, to copy the images to a flashcart: now is that cheating too???

[Xebec's Demise]

...oh yes.....remember that A.R. was originally released on floppys which already had a very hard protection (done by a group of very professional coders): some cheater (also very clever) made it possible for YOU Xebec, to copy the images to a flashcart: now is that cheating too???

870667[/snapback]

 

It sure is, but I also purchased a copy too. Many people did not purchase a copy simply because a "free" copy was available. The harder the protection is, the less people will end up copying it. For example, when there was a game with no form of copy protection people rampantly and freely copied away, even those with very little computer skills. It's always better to have some copy protection instead of none. There would be millions more illegitimate copies of Win XP running on machines right now if it did not have some registrations and copy protection methods to stop and slow people down from running a pirated copy.

 

But, now we are discussing two different things, there is much less incentive for someone to cheat on a game than to get something for free. In this case, if there is an easy way to discourage cheating, it should be done, for example, by not allowing backups. In fact, that would actually save time and be easier, because there will be less programming involved - the benefits are twofold.

 

Of course, there will always be those who spend the time to cheat and find new ways of doing so, but it's always better if cheating can be discouraged and minimized. Would you not agree?

[Xebec's Demise]

Well, why don't we just have you interview people that want to play, and if you approve of their devotion you can let them use a kiosk, where you can watch them play and monitor their behavior for any non-Xebec approved activity?

870642[/snapback]

 

 

Sit up straight! Legs bent at a 90 degree angle! Eyeballs straight forward, you maggots!

 

Attack the Imp on my command!

 

...you look like trash and smell like a skunk, go sh*t, shower and shave, then come back and maybe I'll let you play! Get out of my face!

 

Edited June 8, 2005 by Xebec's Demise