AR: City - FlashCart / Stage 2

[analmux]

Xebec, you just can't stop, can you?

 

Since we were running off-topic a little bit (f.e. you're discussing my temper), try to be more decent and continue somewhere else. Please don't spoil Wrathchild's thread any longer.

 

I don't see any reason to lock a thread that people are heavily participating in. The very fact that people are getting so involved in the discussion only further shows that this is a worthwhile project that people care about and that people do want to discuss it. As long as people can keep the discussion civililzed and on-topic, the discussion should continue. Otherwise it will just spread to other threads and new threads will be created, which will disorganize the discussion.

 

No. People get very annoyed by your attitude, and won't accept that. Most of the (later) posts are about you and your ignorance. Not about AR.

 

About your last post: you're still challenging people to reply. I could do that, and break many of your arguments, but that does not gain me anything, because I know you will sooner or later post new ill-argumented statements, and then everything will start over again.....no thanks, so that's more the reason why I don't like discussing with you.

 

Whatever, you seem to keep losing your temper, that's fine

 

did you hear me shout or something???......I just stated that it's not worth arguing with you if you're consequently making statements with weak arguments.

 

Does ignoring me really help?

 

In no sense....I've noticed. Well, I secretly hoped that all the others ignored you too, because it's getting really boring, and the thread should inform us about Wrathchilds progress. Most of the people are now tired of this 'discussion' and will ignore any new posts anyway. But that should not happen, if Wrathchild wants to update on his progress.

 

I am not going to put you on ignore because I don't agree with you or don't like what you write.

 

That is not the point, and you know that. I think it's fine if other people have a different opinion, but when discussing opinions gets awkward it's a different story.

 

I was not specifically refering to you anyway. I thought your last post was good and brought up some good points and even told you so. But, then immmediately after that with your next post, you went right back into the same old pattern of claiming that I should not expect Wrathchild to do what I want. I don't. I will be happy if he only considers my advice.

 

Well, earlier you stated you 'had plans with the AR cartridge', suggesting that you're the one in charge.

 

So, I have bigger plans for the AR cartridge than just getting the game on cartridge. Maybe you can better understand why I am so interested in it?

 

However, I cannot agree with your statement that AR:The City "allowed" backups. You could just as easily say that AR:The City "allowed" character editing because you could do it

 

Weak statement. ALL users can make backups for the sake of the built-in option, otherwise PP would have made a copy protection on the characterdisks as well. Character editors were made afterwards, and not by the original game makers, so that was 'not allowed'. And deathtrappomegranate is right: The official documentation encouraged character backups. I have the original

booklet here.

 

Just because you could copy a character disk and end up with a backup of your character does not mean that the original intention of Philip Price was for you to do so

 

IT IS!!! ...as deathtrappomegranate pointed out....you see Xebec, you are really ignorant. It's not the point that people don't like your vision on this, but you consequently ignore people's arguments. This is not the way to discuss things.

 

He went to more trouble than any other game designer that I can think of at the time to make his Alternate Reality game as realistic and true to life as possible. If one thing is certain about life, it's death.

 

Just playing with an idea: The most realistic would be a game which you can play only once....once you die the game disk or cartridge terminates itself and explodes. Then you're game over, and at the same time you're dead.....wait, isn't that game called 'the army'.....you see: don't start arguing how realistic it might supposedly have been, it just doesn't make any sense.

 

I have a hunch it was Datasoft and Datasoft marketing that came up with such a scheme as adding the recommendation to backup your character often into the guidebook in the belief that it would help sell the game better as some people were complaining of the level of difficulty

 

Making speculations just isn't the same as giving good arguments.

 

-----------

Xebec, You see, it's not that hard to see why your arguments fail, and this is

exactly why people get annoyed, because you don't have an eye for other

people's arguments.

Edited June 20, 2005 by analmux

[Xebec's Demise]

Actually, I would like to have competitions and give away prizes or public recognition, in a Hall of Fame. The only way I could do so with even the slightest good faith, is to have a little protection. This sort of thing would definately help spread the word about the cartridge conversion, just as our discussion and competition here at Atari Age has.

 

You are right, I don't think cheating the game is really a big issue for enthusiasts and it does not require a team of the best coders to come up with code as analmux was suggesting. It just needs a little bit of protection, not adding in backups would not require any work and be the simplest deterrent, but I am sure there are a couple of other ways to discourage those that are borderline to play and enjoy the game rather than wasting the time on a hack, which spoils the game and ruins competition and sharing, if too readily available.

 

How about an Alternate Reality booth at the next Atari convention, where people can bring in their AR carts and compare characters. I could set up a dozen Ataris and run a timed competition to see who could reach level 5 the quickest or get a Magical Flamesword first, just kidding, on the Flamesword that is, and then give out prizes like AR carts and posters. Yeah, you can call me crazy for this last paragraph, I don't mind that, it would be fun for me and I am sure many would enjoy it and be attracted to the booth.

Edited June 19, 2005 by Xebec's Demise

[Xebec's Demise]

Wrathchild,

 

With concern about the AR cartridge project, I was wondering how the community has handled the outright sale of conversions with new labels in the past? Is it one of those things that are just done because it's not worth the money or effort for any copyright holders to sue? - And thus, people cross their fingers. Or is there some kind of way to accept donations in exchange for cartridge conversions?

 

Have there ever been any problems?

Edited June 20, 2005 by Xebec's Demise

[Goochman]

Xebec,

 

You missed Deathtraps point - AR The CIty provided a disk backup program - even mentioned it in the manual - This is far from the 3rd party chracter editing programs not provided with the original software.

[danwinslow]

Xebec missed a point? Wowsers, thats news.

[Xebec's Demise]

Xebec,

 

You missed Deathtraps point - AR The CIty provided a disk backup program - even mentioned it in the manual - This is far from the 3rd party chracter editing programs not provided with the original software.

877232[/snapback]

 

No, I did not miss his point, but you may have missed my post:

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?s...t=entry877180

 

It was not specifically a Character Backup utility. It was just a disk copier. As you know, it was also recommended for many disk based games back then that you make copies of your disks and keep the originals safe. That way if one of the disks went bad, you still had your originals. Because AR required more disk use than many other programs, this would be especially true of AR. You would not want your original disks to become defective.

 

Anyway, because Philip Price could have easily added in a character ressurection option or a continue option wich would only take a few lines of code and could ressurect or continue a character in a matter of seconds, I don't think he intended for the disk copier to be used for cheating death in a game that he worked so diligently in making as realistic as possible with 48k. It was probably added in later at the suggestion of Datasoft, that was responsible for replacing bad disks and was intended for making copies of the disks that take the most wear, disk 2, side 1 and disk 2 side 2. The manual was written by the marketing director not Philip Price.

Edited June 20, 2005 by Xebec's Demise

[+remowilliams]

You are right, I don't think cheating the game is really a big issue for enthusiasts and it does not require a team of the best coders to come up with code as analmux was suggesting.  It just needs a little bit of protection, not adding in backups would not require any work and be the simplest deterrent, but I am sure there are a couple of other ways to discourage those that are borderline to play and enjoy the game rather than wasting the time on a hack, which spoils the game and ruins competition and sharing, if too readily available.

That's all it boils down to - isn't it? It's all about saving everyone from their inability to control themselves or make their own decisions on how to play. You're convinced that you can make people play the "RIGHT WAY". Do any of the "other ways to discourage" involve hot pokers or bare electrical cords by chance?

Well, why don't we just have you interview people that want to play, and if you approve of their devotion you can let them use a kiosk, where you can watch them play and monitor their behavior for any non-Xebec approved activity?

 

How about an Alternate Reality booth at the next Atari convention, where people can bring in their AR carts and compare characters.  I could set up a dozen Ataris and run a timed competition to see who could reach level 5 the quickest or get a Magical Flamesword first, just kidding, on the Flamesword that is, and then give out prizes like AR carts and posters.  Yeah, you can call me crazy for this last paragraph, I don't mind that, it would be fun for me and I am sure many would enjoy it and be attracted to the booth.

As danwinslow pointed out - this would seem to be the only acceptable solution. That way you can personally monitor all the AR players there for compliance. Exceptional fun for you!

 

And stop inquiring about M.U.L.E. - Years ago, I was elected Supreme Overlord of Right and Proper Enjoyment Enforcement for that game.

[Xebec's Demise]

Let's look at it from the other way around.

 

Why would you want to introduce cheats into the AR cartridge, when there is an opportunity to lessen them?

 

I think the major difference here is the level of appreciation that we have for Alternate Reality. Whereas, I genuinely care about this game and the cartridge project and want nothing but the best for the future of the AR cartridge, AR may not be your favorite game and you may not care as much what happens to the project and may even care more about how you can make fun of me in a forum or try to counter-argue my suggestions. You do not like the idea of someone recommending anything that would limit what you have already done and can already do with the disks. It does not matter if it would be better for the game play, you just don't like my recommendations because they would limit what you are used to. I can understand that, nobody likes to be limited, but realize that It would be limiting myself too. I have no personal gain or secret agenda to realize by limiting cheats on Alternate Reality. I would be limited too. I have been open and honest. It would be better for the game.

 

I cannot see any reason that someone would want to introduce cheats into a game if they truly cared about the game and the gameplay experience.

 

So, no matter what you were "allowed" or capable of doing with the original, why would you want to introduce the same cheats into the AR cartridge, when there is an opportunity to lessen them? Give me a good reason and you may change my opinion, but I have not seen one yet. The very best argument presented is that it could be done in the original, but I don't believe that was the original intent of Philip Price and I value his opinion over that of Datasoft's. A game is always better without cheats.

 

So, why would you want to introduce cheats into the AR cartridge, when there is an opportunity to lessen them?

Edited June 20, 2005 by Xebec's Demise

[analmux]

(maybe it would be easier to understand my meanings if you saw my facial expressions and heard my voice: I'm not bad-tempered, and I'm plain serious)

 

......may even care more about how you can make fun of me in a forum or try to counter-argue my suggestions.

 

Not all people can agree with you, and with your attitude you ask for this kind of reaction. I must admit I couldn't resist to make a joke, but most of the time I'm serious on this.

 

I cannot see any reason that someone would want to introduce cheats into a game if they truly cared about the game and the gameplay experience.

 

I feel sorry for you. Seriously. We have discussed this multiple times, without any constructive conclusion . Now it seems like you forgot about what we've discussed before. How am I supposed to discuss if the other person forgets what's been said? So let us please not start all over again.

 

So, no matter what you were "allowed" or capable of doing with the original, why would you want to introduce cheats into the AR cartridge, when there is an opportunity to lessen them?

 

Backuping is not cheating 'In Most People's Humble Opinion'. That's also been explained long before. Is there anything new

 

So come on Xebec:

I think everything about making backups has been said, so it's time for a new subject. Please don't bring it up again. Otherwise, I strongly recommend you to open a separate thread for this.

 

To the others (including myself):

Please don't challenge Xebec again with any jokes or whatever. Remember: Xebec is not that good in accepting arguments. He even forgets things that have already been discussed. So let's assume he's just not a talented speaker, but that's not making Xebec any less than other people. I think he has some strong ideals (which earns respect IMHO), and organizing a meeting where people can play AR in a booth sounds very nice.

 

I really hope this will put an end to this tiresome discussion, and we have a sleep on it. Tomorrow everything is fine

Edited June 20, 2005 by analmux

[Xebec's Demise]

Actually, generally people do consider backups as a form of cheating. When you can can start over from any point in a game as many times as you want, that is generally considered a cheat. Just pose this question on any gaming forum and you will see I am correct!

 

The difference with AR is that eveyone has accepted backups as being a part of the game and the manual had even suggested it. So, now when we are discussing the issue, it seems normal to have backups as pretty much anyone that has played the game has made them. Thus, backups in AR seem like an acceptable cheat or not one at all, but it is still a form of cheating, it's just widely accepted. Overall, in the long run, it does not improve the game though, it lessens it, it makes it easier without having to learn how to survive on your own. Therefore, if you always use backups, you never really learn how to fully play or appreciate the game.

 

AR the cartridge should take advantage of it's cartridge based medium offering something that is not already available. Without changing the game code one of the biggest differences a cartridge can offer is a game that is more difficult to cheat. You can always "learn" to play by using backups with the disk version or emulator. If the cartridge is just the same, then there is no reason to graduate to it other than the faster loads. Removing the cheats would add an additional reason to play the cartridge version, a sense of competition and a greater pride in one's characters.

 

Remeber, you can save your character and restart at any time where you left off from. This is totally different from being able to go back in time, as many times as you want and start over from whatever point you want as often as you like.

[+remowilliams]

Actually, generally people do consider backups as a form of cheating.  When you can can start over from any point in a game as many times as you want, that is generally considered a cheat.  Just pose this question on any gaming forum and you will see I am correct!

 

...Overall, in the long run, it does not improve the game though, it lessens it, it makes it easier without having to learn how to survive on your own.  Therefore, if you always use backups, you never really learn how to fully play or appreciate the game.

 

... If the cartridge is just the same, then there is no reason to graduate to it other than the faster loads.  Removing the cheats would add an additional reason to play the cartridge version, a sense of competition and a greater pride in one's characters.

 

Remeber, you can save your character and restart at any time where you left off from.  This is totally different from being able to go back in time, as many times as you want and start over from whatever point you want as often as you like.

877322[/snapback]

If this "debate" really needs to continue, at least please change your avatar so that his index fingers are stuck firmly in his ears. That way if there are any newcomers to this awful thread, they can quickly and easily see what's going on without having to read the same thing ad nausuem.

[Tempest]

Alright I've re-opened this thread, but I will lock it again if the trolling continues. Please stay on topic, and keep all inappropriate comments to yourself.

 

I'm watching...

 

Tempest

[danwinslow]

*crickets*

[Trilog]

A day earlier than expected 

 

Here is Stage 2. Remember the goal for this release was

to permit a temporary character to roam around the city

and do the sort of things any respectful (or disrespectful

for that matter) AR character would want to do...

 

Well you can now!

861488[/snapback]

 

Hi,

 

I've been trying to use the Cartridge image with Atari800Win Plus and Atari++ but all I get is the initial credits screen followed by either a black screen or a crash (depending on the memory, machine or cartridge type I select).

 

Should the cartridge image work ok on an emulator? I've used Atari800Win Plus a lot with the disk images of The City and The Dungeon without any real issues.

 

Sounds like a great project anyway.

 

Thanks.

[Wrathchild]

I've been trying to use the Cartridge image with Atari800Win Plus and Atari++ but all I get is the initial credits screen followed by either a black screen or a crash (depending on the memory, machine or cartridge type I select).

As of Atari++ 1.40 (and I think 1.41 too) only the AtariMax cart supported was the 1 MegaBit cart, so the AR image won't currently run under this emulator.

Hopefully Thomas will come out with a new release soon with this added.

 

You'll need an updated Atari800Win Plus with flash support.

http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?a...e=post&id=31088

This should become mainstream in their next (beta) release.

 

Regards,

Mark

Edited June 21, 2005 by Wrathchild

[Gunstar]

*crickets*

877647[/snapback]

Are "we" a 'Tom goes to the Mayor' fan?

[Xebec's Demise]

I think the good to see in all this is that everyone cares greatly about AR. If the thread was empty and nobody was replying, that would be sad. So, while the personal attacks and trolls are not desired, in a way it's good to see heated discussions on the subject. It only shows that everybody really does care about the project. A thread that nobody cares about would quickly drop off the radar. That is definately not the case here with AR.

 

This thread has had 1000 views per week.

 

 

Thank you Tempest!

[Trilog]

I've been trying to use the Cartridge image with Atari800Win Plus and Atari++ but all I get is the initial credits screen followed by either a black screen or a crash ...

 

You'll need an updated Atari800Win Plus with flash support.

http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?a...e=post&id=31088

This should become mainstream in their next (beta) release.

 

Regards,

Mark

878150[/snapback]

 

Mark,

 

Thanks for the quick response. I'm really impressed with what you've done so far and look forward to the next release. I've found the "Entering / Leaving" issue a source of frustration in the past (before I realised that I couldn't use snapshots). Hopefully you can sort that one out for the cartridge version.

[+remowilliams]

I've been trying to use the Cartridge image with Atari800Win Plus and Atari++ but all I get is the initial credits screen followed by either a black screen or a crash (depending on the memory, machine or cartridge type I select).

As of Atari++ 1.40 (and I think 1.41 too) only the AtariMax cart supported was the 1 MegaBit cart, so the AR image won't currently run under this emulator.

Hopefully Thomas will come out with a new release soon with this added.

 

You'll need an updated Atari800Win Plus with flash support.

http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?a...e=post&id=31088

This should become mainstream in their next (beta) release.

 

Regards,

Mark

878150[/snapback]

 

I've been playing with it on a 8mb maxflash cart on a 130XE, and boy is it sweet, seems to work fine with APE WarpOS as well. That little AR loading elevator counter flies by at an absurd rate

[Wrathchild]

I've been playing with it on a 8mb maxflash cart on a 130XE, and boy is it sweet, seems to work fine with APE WarpOS as well.  That little AR loading elevator counter flies by at an absurd rate

You don't know how slowed down that is! It can go a lot faster

Notice how it finished a few blocks short? That's because the original

loader only uses 127 bytes from a sector. As I'm using 128 it completes

early. I tried to alter the 'start' point accordingly so it would end up in

the correct place, but due to something (can't recall what), this isn't

liked and the thing goes haywire. I may revisit this and pad my sectors

with a dummy byte so that it uses 127 bytes again.

 

Regards,

Mark

[Xebec's Demise]

Can you still skip over the loading process by pressing START when the Title and credits come up or is it way to fast? It might be nice to slow down that very first part up to the credit screen so that we can get a START press in there in order to jump straight to the character menu.

[+remowilliams]

Can you still skip over the loading process by pressing START when the Title and credits come up or is it way to fast?  It might be nice to slow down that very first part up to the credit screen so that we can get a START press in there in order to jump straight to the character menu.

878519[/snapback]

It takes about 2.5 seconds from power on to the start of the city abduction intro. And about another 12 seconds to get to the character menu - about 10 seconds of that is waiting for the "elevator" door closing sequence thing. Pressing start right at the opening credit screen and skipping the city intro load doesn't seem to save much time (possibly a second). That intro load is fast!

 

Solid state software. Gotta love it!

[+remowilliams]

I've been playing with it on a 8mb maxflash cart on a 130XE, and boy is it sweet, seems to work fine with APE WarpOS as well.  That little AR loading elevator counter flies by at an absurd rate

You don't know how slowed down that is! It can go a lot faster

Notice how it finished a few blocks short? That's because the original

loader only uses 127 bytes from a sector. As I'm using 128 it completes

early. I tried to alter the 'start' point accordingly so it would end up in

the correct place, but due to something (can't recall what), this isn't

liked and the thing goes haywire. I may revisit this and pad my sectors

with a dummy byte so that it uses 127 bytes again.

 

Regards,

Mark

878480[/snapback]

Yeah, I noticed that it stopped a few short.

 

Captive - "This floor doesn't look right!?"

Elevator Guy - "This floor is alien sporting goods. You wanted the city? Thats five more levels down"

[Xebec's Demise]

If you can hit START right when the black screen with credits comes up, the game will go straight to the green character menu and even skip over the elevator doors closing and the little counter. But its even a little tricky to do on the emulator at 100% unless you diable SIO.

Edited June 22, 2005 by Xebec's Demise

[Gunstar]

If you can hit START right when the black screen with credits comes up, the game will go straight to the green character menu and even skip over the elevator doors closing and the little counter.  But its even a little tricky to do on the emulator at 100% unless you diable SIO.

878713[/snapback]

It's not a problem at all with regualr disks of course, it stays on the credits screen for about 10 seconds and you can press start at anytime while it's there to skip the whole intro.