To All Non-Programmer Idea Peddlers

[+batari]

Something you need to keep in mind is that on Atari, artists are not needed. I don't see the original post you guys are referring to, but a lot of artists come to these forums with a sort of "What? You don't want my ideas and art? Pshhh, fine then!" attitude. The people on this forum can do everything that's needed, and do it well, on these homebrew games. The only reason to get involved in Atari hobbydev is because of a consuming passion for the specific platform, and even then it probably won't be enough because, again, the people here don't need artists. Or ideas. They're swimming in them, and it takes time and passion to make these games. If you're just interested in collaborating on some homebrew games, you'd have a much easier time in something like the NDS scene. Only try to find work on these boards if the Atari platforms are very important to you, and in that sense just getting the opportunity to contribute to a game should be far more important than any credit, cash, or anything else that could come from the experience.

 

The atari platform can never be more important to an artist as it is to a programmer, so it's very easy to push artist's away by lording all over it.

Atari back in the day never hired artists to work with programmers anyway because they were too cheap. Now you say artists tend to have attitudes for not being wanted? Too many out there, eh? Must be the economy.

Actually that is not correct at all. Atari hired a whole bunch of artist to work with the programmers. Go look at the pages for each game here on AA and many of them have the artist next to them. There are even more but some of the games just don't have the artist listed.

 

Allan

Are you sure the artist wasn't for designing the label, box art and promotional materials?

 

I'd be surprised if they had pixel artists back then, especially since the sprites were usually not impressive and often looked like they were designed by programmers.

[jaybird3rd]

I'd be surprised if they had pixel artists back then, especially since the sprites were usually not impressive and often looked like they were designed by programmers.

The programmers generally designed their own graphics, certainly in the early days at Atari. I've heard that Imagic was the first company to pair up artists with programmers; Michael Becker (who designed Imagic's distinctive packaging) talked about this during one of the Imagic discussion panels some years ago at CGE.

[+Allan]

Something you need to keep in mind is that on Atari, artists are not needed. I don't see the original post you guys are referring to, but a lot of artists come to these forums with a sort of "What? You don't want my ideas and art? Pshhh, fine then!" attitude. The people on this forum can do everything that's needed, and do it well, on these homebrew games. The only reason to get involved in Atari hobbydev is because of a consuming passion for the specific platform, and even then it probably won't be enough because, again, the people here don't need artists. Or ideas. They're swimming in them, and it takes time and passion to make these games. If you're just interested in collaborating on some homebrew games, you'd have a much easier time in something like the NDS scene. Only try to find work on these boards if the Atari platforms are very important to you, and in that sense just getting the opportunity to contribute to a game should be far more important than any credit, cash, or anything else that could come from the experience.

 

The atari platform can never be more important to an artist as it is to a programmer, so it's very easy to push artist's away by lording all over it.

Atari back in the day never hired artists to work with programmers anyway because they were too cheap. Now you say artists tend to have attitudes for not being wanted? Too many out there, eh? Must be the economy.

Actually that is not correct at all. Atari hired a whole bunch of artist to work with the programmers. Go look at the pages for each game here on AA and many of them have the artist next to them. There are even more but some of the games just don't have the artist listed.

 

Allan

Are you sure the artist wasn't for designing the label, box art and promotional materials?

 

I'd be surprised if they had pixel artists back then, especially since the sprites were usually not impressive and often looked like they were designed by programmers.

Noop. Those were other artist.

 

For example:

 

http://www.atariage.com/programmer_page.html?ProgrammerID=265

 

http://www.atariage.com/programmer_page.html?ProgrammerID=108

 

http://www.atariage.com/programmer_page.html?ProgrammerID=210

 

Allan

[+Allan]

I'd be surprised if they had pixel artists back then, especially since the sprites were usually not impressive and often looked like they were designed by programmers.

The programmers generally designed their own graphics, certainly in the early days at Atari. I've heard that Imagic was the first company to pair up artists with programmers; Michael Becker (who designed Imagic's distinctive packaging) talked about this during one of the Imagic discussion panels some years ago at CGE.

 

Not true. Atari was the first. See my post above.

 

Read this interview: http://www.digitpress.com/library/interviews/interview_marilyn_churchill.html

 

Allan

[GroovyBee]

Read this interview: http://www.digitpress.com/library/interviews/interview_marilyn_churchill.html

 

Thanks for that. It was an interesting read.

[+batari]

Noop. Those were other artist.

 

For example:

 

http://www.atariage.com/programmer_page.html?ProgrammerID=265

 

http://www.atariage.com/programmer_page.html?ProgrammerID=108

 

http://www.atariage.com/programmer_page.html?ProgrammerID=210

 

Allan

I find it amazing that a pixel artist was needed for 2600 Defender sprites. Looks like he did some decent work later, but 2600 Defender?

[Rev. Rob]

I really have nothing substantive to add, but wouldn't it be hilarious if someone made a collection of minigames based on these title?

 

http://mightygodking.com/index.php/2008/04/21/fun-from-yesterday/

 

heh

[retrorussell]

I proposed this idea to the Colecovision thread, and I'll post it here, as I believe it can be done on any system:

Out Of This World/Another World

[Blues76]

IMO, if you are not contributing with either:

1. Money

2. Programming

3. Music or art

4. Equipment

 

You don't get to give an idea!

[Csonicgo]

IMO, if you are not contributing with either:

1. Money

2. Programming

3. Music or art

4. Equipment

 

You don't get to give an idea!

 

I wouldn't say that! Ideas are what drives a good inventor, not capital. However, If you could hack up a quick concept using Java or some other BASIC language, that always helps.

[BladeJunker]

I thought the initial post was well thought and I recommend anyone posting a game idea to read it. The only thing I take issue with was this line.

"You are asking for far, far, far more than you are giving or will ever contribute."

This is extremely harsh and and incorrect since while programmers are under appreciated and under payed, in general "Ideas" are probably the most under appreciated work anyone can ever do as producers with money and skilled practitioners of any number of skills can be completely without any good ideas for their own. I would rather have a rough plan filled with passion than a slick perfect pile of blandness.

 

To everybody who suggested the programmer get all the potential profits, are you freaking crazy? I've now spent at least a year with the 2600 as a humble novice and doodler completely unpayed but if you think I'll accept simply a cart as compensation for a design document/sprites/backstory/cartridge artwork you are out of your mind. I know the history of pay for programmers has had its ups and down since the age of computers but if you're just going to dis value people in other fields of skill you are no better than those you take offense with.

Sure with a 2600 project I agree the programmer should get the largest slice of the pie because of the nature of the hardware platform but to get all of it is ridiculous, even on other platforms any and all programmers will still need to spilt this larger piece of pie I mention even if the percentage grows with more programmers added.

 

As far as reading the TIA manual once or sixteen times unless you actually understand programming most of it goes misunderstood. I love when people show me how easy it is for them to do something they're really good at since then I instantly get it afterwards, sheesh. I agree Batari is great as it nurtures the the 2600 Homebrew scene in a very positive way but some games really require experts to function as intended.

 

I have no doubt the programmers on this forum have tons and tons of great game ideas but wouldn't they just be posting working projects and even finished projects, would not the posting of game ideas suggest a lack programming ability otherwise you would just make it yourself? Is that not the paradox of the Homebrew section?

As far as Spam on any forum can we please stop complaining about the number of posts period, its a forum, its open, its public, anyone can post and that is not a bad thing?

 

To the statement that the 2600 doesn't need pixel artists or good art in general, that is a dubious statement since it just creates a self fulfilling standard of "Atari Grade Graphics". My best friend is programmer and while once in a while he draws something neat most of his art is pretty bad. Even though any game can function with any game objects wouldn't you want said objects to look as good as possible? Does any game really function any better or worse if the game objects were blocks or cubes exclusively? Having said that I wouldn't suggest any artist mockup screenshots till they actually understand the hardware at its most basic requirements, and the further back in time you go the more this comes true.

 

I can't say I like cliques or elitism since it just seem like the kind of crap you should have left behind in high school and hardly makes any kind of sense in something as large as the internet arena.

Right and Left brain people will always continue to misunderstand each other in both goals and possibilities so you have to come with diplomacy when making any kind of Homebrew. If you come with the attitude that you are God don't expect to make friends or get anywhere with your project except alone.

I bring this up since I see a lot bad blood going on between the usual 2 camps found in making video games that isn't good. You have to ask yourself, are these people taking me for granted or is just people have taken advantage of me in the past? A complete lack of trust will keep you safe but you will never go anywhere or grow in experiences, trust me on this.

 

As far as "Game Designers" I think both artists and programmers don't necessarily design great games always and that it too is another skill or discipline. I'll stop here with the observation that it is amazing how much time and energy some people put into discouraging others from doing things.

[+Random Terrain]

I'll stop here with the observation that it is amazing how much time and energy some people put into discouraging others from doing things.

 

They don't want to discourage people from doing things, they want them to do them. An artist or idea peddler can whip up at least a working example of a game using batari Basic with Visual batari Basic if he or she can't make the whole thing themselves.

 

If a game is sold in the AtariAge store, the programmer makes five dollars for each unit sold. Should the artist or idea peddler get a dollar of that? Two dollars? Four dollars? It's not a lot to fight over, especially when less than 100 units will probably be sold.

[BladeJunker]

They don't want to discourage people from doing things, they want them to do them. An artist or idea peddler can whip up at least a working example of a game using batari Basic with Visual batari Basic if he or she can't make the whole thing themselves.

That is true for the vast majority of people here, I do believe they want people to try it for themselves that isn't in question overall. What we really have here is one of the idea person not being the programmer hence the subject line "To All Non-Programmer Idea Pedllers", what brought me here was that vdub_bobby didn't just say "learn to program". I concede you'll get a lot further doing it on your own since you set the pace and means of production but this isn't the subject matter, he has suggested only a well planned and prepared design to present but not necessarily a working BIN.

In my opinion I don't really think you can train any person to do any task, people have strengths and weaknesses with programming being my "blank spot" in understanding.

 

If a game is sold in the AtariAge store, the programmer makes five dollars for each unit sold. Should the artist or idea peddler get a dollar of that? Two dollars? Four dollars? It's not a lot to fight over, especially when less than 100 units will probably be sold.

I'm not trying to fight over the few dollars that can be made with retroware and I even suggested the programmer get most of the 5 dollars perhaps 4$+, I just took offense at the concept that everybody but the programmer would get nothing but a pat on the back. Sure not everybody said this here but at least a few crowned themselves the true creator of all existence.

[+Random Terrain]

. . . people have strengths and weaknesses with programming being my "blank spot" in understanding.

 

I suck at everything, including programming, so I just start with an existing example program and copy and paste what I need from this page:

 

www.randomterrain.com/atari-2600-memories-batari-basic-commands.html

 

Seems like I use the frequently used links and the index on the right side of the page about a billion times a day when I am working on a program.

[+batari]

I thought the initial post was well thought and I recommend anyone posting a game idea to read it. The only thing I take issue with was this line.

"You are asking for far, far, far more than you are giving or will ever contribute."

This is extremely harsh and and incorrect since while programmers are under appreciated and under payed, in general "Ideas" are probably the most under appreciated work anyone can ever do as producers with money and skilled practitioners of any number of skills can be completely without any good ideas for their own. I would rather have a rough plan filled with passion than a slick perfect pile of blandness.

 

To everybody who suggested the programmer get all the potential profits, are you freaking crazy? I've now spent at least a year with the 2600 as a humble novice and doodler completely unpayed but if you think I'll accept simply a cart as compensation for a design document/sprites/backstory/cartridge artwork you are out of your mind. I know the history of pay for programmers has had its ups and down since the age of computers but if you're just going to dis value people in other fields of skill you are no better than those you take offense with.

Sure with a 2600 project I agree the programmer should get the largest slice of the pie because of the nature of the hardware platform but to get all of it is ridiculous, even on other platforms any and all programmers will still need to spilt this larger piece of pie I mention even if the percentage grows with more programmers added.

While I've always felt there was a need for a thread like this one, I never quite felt it completely captured the all of the issues here.

 

I will state a few main points that I hope will help.

 

1. There is basically nothing to fight over.

Programmers usually work for less than minimum wage, and might earn a few hundred dollars for a few hundred hours of work.

 

2. Programmers do most of the work.

The programming takes up 95% or more of the time in creating a game. While nobody wishes to dismiss the creative talents of others, 5% of the "profit" of a typical project happens to be not much more than the value of a cart. Suggesting you get 20% of the profit for 5% of the work is misguided.

 

Other graphic artists are willing to help with a game and do not demand "profits." There is no market for artists looking for "profit." If you do not understand why someone would do such a thing, keep reading.

 

3. Nobody does it for the money.

It's a labor of love, plain and simple.

 

Any concern over money is completely misguided. We do it for various reasons, and none have any sort of compensation in mind. We do it because it's fun, we like the challenge, like to see our old, beloved console sing and dance, and many other reasons. And some do it because as a kid we dreamed of being Atari programmers, but were of course too young or inexperienced, but later on found that we could live the dream in a way.

 

I created the first version of batari Basic as a personal challenge - to see if it could be done, or maybe to do what others suggested was impossible. It quickly became a vehicle to maybe allow others to live the dreams I sought myself with some games I created before bB.

 

I have no doubt the programmers on this forum have tons and tons of great game ideas but wouldn't they just be posting working projects and even finished projects, would not the posting of game ideas suggest a lack programming ability otherwise you would just make it yourself? Is that not the paradox of the Homebrew section? As far as Spam on any forum can we please stop complaining about the number of posts period, its a forum, its open, its public, anyone can post and that is not a bad thing?

Ideas are fine, and encouraged. This thread is all about those who post an idea, then wish to hire a programmer and give him a cut of the "profits." This, we scoff at because anyone who thinks this way entirely misses the point.

 

If we were paid a fair, market value for our efforts, you would pay us maybe $10k or more before a single cart was produced, and we'd be out of the loop while you tried to sell the carts and make up your "profit."

To the statement that the 2600 doesn't need pixel artists or good art in general, that is a dubious statement since it just creates a self fulfilling standard of "Atari Grade Graphics". My best friend is programmer and while once in a while he draws something neat most of his art is pretty bad. Even though any game can function with any game objects wouldn't you want said objects to look as good as possible? Does any game really function any better or worse if the game objects were blocks or cubes exclusively? Having said that I wouldn't suggest any artist mockup screenshots till they actually understand the hardware at its most basic requirements, and the further back in time you go the more this comes true.

It is absolutely true that any game could benefit from creative talents of pixel artists. But there has never been a shortage of talent here. Until, or unless there are no pixel artists willing to contribute without demanding "profits" then the argument is really moot.

I can't say I like cliques or elitism since it just seem like the kind of crap you should have left behind in high school and hardly makes any kind of sense in something as large as the internet arena.

Right and Left brain people will always continue to misunderstand each other in both goals and possibilities so you have to come with diplomacy when making any kind of Homebrew. If you come with the attitude that you are God don't expect to make friends or get anywhere with your project except alone.

I bring this up since I see a lot bad blood going on between the usual 2 camps found in making video games that isn't good. You have to ask yourself, are these people taking me for granted or is just people have taken advantage of me in the past? A complete lack of trust will keep you safe but you will never go anywhere or grow in experiences, trust me on this.

 

As far as "Game Designers" I think both artists and programmers don't necessarily design great games always and that it too is another skill or discipline. I'll stop here with the observation that it is amazing how much time and energy some people put into discouraging others from doing things.

Basically, 2600 programming is a unique realm. A bunch of crazies are producing high-quality work for naught. If you are seeking money for your talents, this is the wrong place to look.

[BladeJunker]

. . . people have strengths and weaknesses with programming being my "blank spot" in understanding.

 

I suck at everything, including programming, so I just start with an existing example program and copy and paste what I need from this page:

 

www.randomterrain.com/atari-2600-memories-batari-basic-commands.html

 

Seems like I use the frequently used links and the index on the right side of the page about a billion times a day when I am working on a program.

Well okay you've convinced me I'll try harder with batari and give the copy and paste route a go.

[BladeJunker]

1. There is basically nothing to fight over.

Programmers usually work for less than minimum wage, and might earn a few hundred dollars for a few hundred hours of work.

 

You guys need to unionize as much as possible (Outside the homebrew scene obviously where it will actually matter lol.) since if that's what you're getting payed even in 2012 for your work then nobody has much of a chance to make a living after you in all other fields of game development other than the producers. I mean come on, computers turn into paper weights without you fine people. This is a plee I hope you all can take to heart.

 

I haven't been here that long so I thought your handle batari was just you being cute, here I had the author present without realizing it. :

 

2. Programmers do most of the work.

The programming takes up 95% or more of the time in creating a game. While nobody wishes to dismiss the creative talents of others, 5% of the "profit" of a typical project happens to be not much more than the value of a cart. Suggesting you get 20% of the profit for 5% of the work is misguided.

 

Other graphic artists are willing to help with a game and do not demand "profits." There is no market for artists looking for "profit." If you do not understand why someone would do such a thing, keep reading.

 

Please, I implied 20% or less(or less), but 5% sounds good for one person and a little low for several but its always been hard to quantify intellectual property work for better or worse. Write a good novel you might get paid, write a good poem you had better not quit your day job lol.

 

I'm not demanding profits I'm just saying don't suggest others do any kind of work for literally nothing when you wouldn't do that yourself. Don't I know about it artists

getting no profits, they don't call them starving artists for no reason or dying before people like your art lol.

But I ask you do you hear the words coming out of your mouth so to speak, you want to be payed 100% per cart and want better pay in your real job but letting graphics artists work pro-bono sounds fine to you?

 

3. Nobody does it for the money.

It's a labor of love, plain and simple.

 

Any concern over money is completely misguided. We do it for various reasons, and none have any sort of compensation in mind. We do it because it's fun, we like the challenge, like to see our old, beloved console sing and dance, and many other reasons. And some do it because as a kid we dreamed of being Atari programmers, but were of course too young or inexperienced, but later on found that we could live the dream in a way.

 

I created the first version of batari Basic as a personal challenge - to see if it could be done, or maybe to do what others suggested was impossible. It quickly became a vehicle to maybe allow others to live the dreams I sought myself with some games I created before bB.

 

This labor of love concept may be hard truth but if that's the case why does anyone get money at all in this Homebrew scene? Is it just some kind of small concession for you guys to feel appreciated in at least one area of the programming world where elsewhere you don't make 95% of the profits? I'm just trying to understand the box we're all standing in.

 

Well I tip my hat to you on batari Basic and thank you for this wonderful tool/environment for game development used successfully by many people. Still don't be too cross with me since I'm sure plenty of programmers have written things novices like myself fumble with despite your best efforts to make it easier.

 

Ideas are fine, and encouraged. This thread is all about those who post an idea, then wish to hire a programmer and give him a cut of the "profits." This, we scoff at because anyone who thinks this way entirely misses the point.

 

If we were paid a fair, market value for our efforts, you would pay us maybe $10k or more before a single cart was produced, and we'd be out of the loop while you tried to sell the carts and make up your "profit."

 

I can't say I've ever thought like "those" people you mention, I grew up with a programmer so I've at least comprehended how important they are to the life of video games as we had our tango on which direction to go but his expertise dictated whether we moved at all. But still to imply so little worth to all others in different fields of game development as idk "program decorators" can only discourage anybody looking to contribute for Homebrew or a job game development in general. Again it comes back to the basic problem of when the programmer who is the fulcrum isn't paid well how can anyone else?

 

It is absolutely true that any game could benefit from creative talents of pixel artists. But there has never been a shortage of talent here. Until, or unless there are no pixel artists willing to contribute without demanding "profits" then the argument is really moot.

 

I'm more than willing to do free art work as far as research is concerned and I'd draw sprites and graphics for almost anyone on this forum (time permitting), making games however as far as the 2600 I see artists just kind of sitting around waiting for something to happen, Pac-Man-Red for example is a humble friendly person who does some nice work but it mostly just gets viewed rather than used very much for working games.

I'm not completely bonkers since I knew the pursuit of the 2600 as an art medium was not going to be easy or profitable and that it would be uphill because so very few think it can produce art of any relevant caliber. Even though nobody asked me to do this it doesn't mean I don't get tired from my efforts ijs.

 

Basically, 2600 programming is a unique realm. A bunch of crazies are producing high-quality work for naught. If you are seeking money for your talents, this is the wrong place to look.

 

Don't I know it since its like a desert for non programmer types when compared to other platforms in terms of daily nourishment, to continue that analogy many helpful people here have offered me water but they got there own matters to tend to so I forage alone most of the time as far as the 2600 is concerned with art. That's kind of the problem with my pursuit, as far as I've come my Google searches on Atari Pixel Art reap little but myself most of the time which isn't very helpful.

 

I'm not looking for wealth and fame(I'd be pretty crazy if I thought I could do that with a 2600 game.) but even $20-50 when all is said and done would be just fine for an idea. The concept of ideas being worthless has its valid points but much like "good deeds being there own reward" is a false statement in the grand scheme of things since everybody needs genuine encouragement and a few bucks thrown their way.

[+Random Terrain]

This labor of love concept may be hard truth but if that's the case why does anyone get money at all in this Homebrew scene? Is it just some kind of small concession for you guys to feel appreciated in at least one area of the programming world where elsewhere you don't make 95% of the profits? I'm just trying to understand the box we're all standing in.

 

Cart labels, boxes, manuals, and so on aren't cheap. Collectors and some players love all of the extras. That's why they are willing to pay even when the ROM is available. They could put the ROM on a Harmony cart and play on a real Atari 2600, but some people still want a special cart, box, and manual.

[BladeJunker]

Cart labels, boxes, manuals, and so on aren't cheap. Collectors and some players love all of the extras. That's why they are willing to pay even when the ROM is available. They could put the ROM on a Harmony cart and play on a real Atari 2600, but some people still want a special cart, box, and manual.

Dude that's always the case, whether homebrew or simply owning a cart for any system instead using an emulator or RAM cart, collectors definitely like the extra trimmings. But if this your way of saying its impossible to throw a few bucks at someone besides the programmer then the current standard will go unchanged whether I say what I say or not.

While I can appreciate those in the homebrew scene liking the current setup as it does work well for the consumer and the existing regime but it doesn't really give rise to larger or future involvement of people outside the niche. I know a lot of people here hate this stance but you really have to make it incredibly easy for people to join a retro bandwagon which means "dumbing down" the means of production as much as possible for homebrew since the really old school gaming from a technical level intimidates the average person. I know some people here love that aspect because they think it "weeds out the riff raff" but all it does is shrink the potential user base of retro enthusiasm down to smallest possible demographic.

I want everybody or at least more people to fall in love with the 2600 not less.

[+Random Terrain]

Dude that's always the case, whether homebrew or simply owning a cart for any system instead using an emulator or RAM cart, collectors definitely like the extra trimmings. But if this your way of saying its impossible to throw a few bucks at someone besides the programmer then the current standard will go unchanged whether I say what I say or not.

 

Are we talking about a guy who does the programming, assembles the carts, makes the labels and boxes, then ships them himself or are we talking about a person like Albert who will assemble the carts, make the labels and boxes, then sell them for the programmer? In the last case, Albert gets most of the money for making a high-quality product and the programmer gets 5 bucks a unit. The programmer can use that money to buy things that might help him make the next game, like a Harmony cart, useful graphics software, other homebrews, a subscription to AtariAge so he has more room for PMs, and so on.

 

If the programmer gives an artist a dollar of his five, and 50 units are sold, that's not much more than the price of a cart (or less if each unit costs 100 bucks). Would you rather have 50 bucks or a cart, box, and manual that's worth $100?

[BladeJunker]

Are we talking about a guy who does the programming, assembles the carts, makes the labels and boxes, then ships them himself or are we talking about a person like Albert who will assemble the carts, make the labels and boxes, then sells them for the programmer? In the last case, Albert gets most of the money for making a high-quality product and the programmer gets 5 bucks a unit. The programmer can use that money to buy things that might help him make the next game, like a Harmony cart, useful graphics software, other homebrews, a subscription to AtariAge so he has more room for PMs, and so on.

 

If the programmer gives an artist a dollar of his five, and 50 units are sold, that's not much more than the price of a cart (or less if each unit costs 100 bucks). Would you rather have 50 bucks or a cart, box, and manual that's worth $100?

First thanks for the shout out to Albert, there's somebody who needs to be mentioned as often as possible and its good hear about all ends of this production model, I was wondering who built these things. Okay so absolutely no wiggle room then when carts are that premium in the price. So the cart is the main obstacle in this model for everybody involved getting payed, well then we have to think of way to get the product less expensive to manufacture without losing too much quality?

I like premium quality as much as the next person but overall I'd like more game titles from more sources. Although not the same beast I always thought the large newspaper style volumes of Manga offered in Japan and now here in ShonenJump were better bang for your buck compared to tiny glossy color volumes of comic book series sold at a premium.

My first purchase from the AtariAge store is likely a Harmony Cart for homebrew uses, 2 if I can get my buddy going again with game programming on the side. I do plan to buy as many homebrew titles as I can once I setup some E-money but even then I'm too broke most of the time to buy much on a monthly basis since I collect for many systems and get new systems all the time.

I'm not unreasonable and I understand the grim reality of costs especially with 3rd party interests(plastic & printing) who have no passion for this hobby. The only thing I know is that mass production of a product lowers the per unit cost but that doesn't work in a niche industry so I can only think to increase the consumer base in ANY way possible.

[Jaynz]

Blade, with due respect, I really don't think you're understanding a basic point here. That is: "There is no real money to be found in homebrewing games". Period. Not at all. Most of the charges you see are to cover just producing carts from out-of-print materials and make them look professional. Anything else is pizza money for the times when the homebrewer is up late wonder just why the heck Jr Pac Man is crapping out when an energizer gets destroyed.

 

This hobby is not really done 'for profit' and certainly not done to make a living off of. Period. End of story. A typical homebrew project will, when all's said and done, actually wind up in the red financially. There is no profit to share up with an 'idea man', and somehow I doubt all these 'idea men' are willing to fork over money for losses on their 'wonderful ideas'. There's no 'economy of scale' to bring down profits, and no 'cheap Chinese manufacturer' that will make things cheaper to produce. Supporting a console that's 20 years out of production isn't going to be a cheap endeavor.

 

People do this only because they love homebrewing and love their old consoles.

[danwinslow]

Got an idea but can't program? Learn to program. If I can do it, anybody can.

[gorf68]

This thread talks like there is real money to be made from retro programs.

Where on earth do you think this money is coming from?

 

The vast majority, probably (easily 90% +) of ‘home-brew,’ is ether given away free or makes absolutely no profit whatsoever.

 

If you are talking about programs delivered on hard-media e.g. cartridges then these are lucky to break even, given the cost of purchasing the bare materials and hardware to make the product... and that’s not including third-party ‘artwork’ or other extras, which some people seem to want a programmer (who will likely ether take a loss or make nothing from their efforts anyway) to pay out for!?!?

 

This Home-Brew is all basically by and for hobbyists, thinking anything else isn’t going to get you anywhere. You may see a relatively high price tag on a home-brew, but the programmer, or cart maker, has generally paid for those materials out of their own pocket, and (in most cases) the costs are only there to reimburse this expense.

 

There is no money; we program ‘retro’ as a hobby, because we want to, and mostly give it away free... There is no business and no business-model or dispersal of wealth for 99% of this. There is no wealth!

 

 

Are you confusing Public Domain, Home-Brew, and Indie games here?

Edited December 4, 2012 by gorf68

[CyberKFox]

I would love to see 7800 versions of the following

- Bloxeed

- Circus Charlie

- Donkey Kong 3

- Micro Machines

- Q*bert's Qubes

- Tapper

- Lode Runner

Edited January 20, 2013 by CyberKFox