For or for not, using cartridges games on JagCF ?

[cobracon]

and will be a nail in the coffin on future developments from certain well known developers.

 

Actually, from the "well known" and "lesser known" developers who've voiced an opinion on this, it seems that they all consider it a good thing, myself included (I being one of the lesser knowns ). If you're meaning Thunderbird, well, I don't think anyone here honestly thinks he's ever going to release anything more anyway, except perhaps a new colour case for bs or something, at twice the price and with just ten copies available.

 

As I said in my other post, listen to the real coders if you want to know what they think, but something tells me you dont really want to know what they think at all.

 

Ho hum... life in the Jag scene flames on as usual... I'm so glad I came back

 

There are other developers besides T-Bird that have shown concern about the CF. In fact it seems most of the developers that are in favor of it haven't actually put anything out yet.

 

There are other developers that have spoken out against this like Oppressor and 3dstooges. Come to think about it, thats most of the people that have released commercial products since the Jaggy became open source. Also I wonder what Carl thinks about people being able to play his game roms on the cf. Afterall he still supports the system and this thing could really hurt his sales.

 

Robert

[MegaData]

and will be a nail in the coffin on future developments from certain well known developers.

 

Actually, from the "well known" and "lesser known" developers who've voiced an opinion on this, it seems that they all consider it a good thing, myself included (I being one of the lesser knowns ). If you're meaning Thunderbird, well, I don't think anyone here honestly thinks he's ever going to release anything more anyway, except perhaps a new colour case for bs or something, at twice the price and with just ten copies available.

 

As I said in my other post, listen to the real coders if you want to know what they think, but something tells me you dont really want to know what they think at all.

 

It's odd you feel that way. Haven't seen you around much except here. I've been around for years...

[GT Turbo]

There are other developers that have spoken out against this like Oppressor and 3dstooges. Come to think about it, thats most of the people that have released commercial products since the Jaggy became open source. Also I wonder what Carl thinks about people being able to play his game roms on the cf. Afterall he still supports the system and this thing could really hurt his sales.

 

 

Perhaps we have yet asked him. To all developers who need infos, and something about JagCF please contact SCPCD or Zerosquare.

 

 

GT

[GT Turbo]

and if the JagCF recognize Checkered Flag it will display this instead

 

 

 

 

GT

[T2KFREEKER]

I ain't voting in this thread and just thought that I would stop by and drop a dime or two. First of all to Tyrant, all developers are NOT behind the CF, and that is a fact. Whether you like it or not, ScatoLOGIC and 3D Stooges are both developers, as well am I part of a team. I am not saying I am against the CF Perse, but I am not for it if it allows you to mplay Pirated ROMs. I only say this as a fact, it is wrong no matter how you slice it. The fact that you are saying that all of the developers are behind this product again bares to question; Where is the proof? I bet the guys that made AVP wouldn't be too happy. I am sure Carl from Sonmgbird wouldn't be too happy to have money taken out of his pocket. I know that Battlesphere wouldn't be such a good idea on the cart either. No matter what you feel towards T-Bird and ScatoLOGIC has no bearing on this, Illegal is Illegal. I tell you this much, I don't weant people handing out copies of my game once it is done as it is crap dudes, and that is that. I will bve 100% behind the CF cart once it releases and has software, as long as it doesn't allow the pirating of ROMs. If it does allow ROM pirating, well, I can't say that I support it, it's that simple.

[T2KFREEKER]

and will be a nail in the coffin on future developments from certain well known developers.

 

Actually, from the "well known" and "lesser known" developers who've voiced an opinion on this, it seems that they all consider it a good thing, myself included (I being one of the lesser knowns ). If you're meaning Thunderbird, well, I don't think anyone here honestly thinks he's ever going to release anything more anyway, except perhaps a new colour case for bs or something, at twice the price and with just ten copies available.

 

As I said in my other post, listen to the real coders if you want to know what they think, but something tells me you dont really want to know what they think at all.

 

Ho hum... life in the Jag scene flames on as usual... I'm so glad I came back

 

There are other developers besides T-Bird that have shown concern about the CF. In fact it seems most of the developers that are in favor of it haven't actually put anything out yet.

 

Dude, pop shots like that aren't needed either, what else are you releasing? At least he released a game. Not saying I doin't Like the Chaos reigns controller man, but damn dude, let the Battlesphere thing go.

 

I am a lesser known developer as well, and I have voiced my concerns.

[Pocket]

I ain't voting in this thread and just thought that I would stop by and drop a dime or two. First of all to Tyrant, all developers are NOT behind the CF, and that is a fact. Whether you like it or not, ScatoLOGIC and 3D Stooges are both developers, as well am I part of a team. I am not saying I am against the CF Perse, but I am not for it if it allows you to mplay Pirated ROMs. I only say this as a fact, it is wrong no matter how you slice it. The fact that you are saying that all of the developers are behind this product again bares to question; Where is the proof? I bet the guys that made AVP wouldn't be too happy. I am sure Carl from Sonmgbird wouldn't be too happy to have money taken out of his pocket. I know that Battlesphere wouldn't be such a good idea on the cart either. No matter what you feel towards T-Bird and ScatoLOGIC has no bearing on this, Illegal is Illegal.

 

Again, when you own the game, it is not illegal. Thunderbird is trying to spread this idea, and the idea that the CF is done for pirating purposes, but that's not the case. If he wants to prove the contrary, he could start to attack the Ipod brand. Good luck !

 

I agree with you, saying all developpers are for one side or another is wrong. In fact, I don't care much - the CF teams have many developpers as far I know - all I want is new Jag games, on cart, CD or CF

Edited September 29, 2006 by Pocket

[SebRmv]

Dumping a ROM and distribute it (or sell it or whatever) IS illegal.

Playing (by any means, even an emulator) a copy of a commercial game you do not own IS illegal.

 

Having the memory of a device mapped to 800000 is NOT illegal.

Edited September 29, 2006 by SebRmv

[GT Turbo]

Having the memory of a device mapped to 800000 is NOT illegal.

 

Lol !!!

 

 

GT

[JagChris]

Dumping a ROM and distribute it (or sell it or whatever) IS illegal.

Playing (by any means, even an emulator) a copy of a commercial game you do not own IS illegal.

 

Having the memory of a device mapped to 800000 is NOT illegal.

 

 

Here you go Seb, a statement of intent made earlier in this thread.

 

I'm 110% behind this, with the rom emulation feature.

 

I've got a pretty substantial set of games, about 40-50 as a rough guess, including some paid for homebrew, and some downloaded homebrew. I have an alpine, and a reasonable set of dumped roms, which I often load into the alpine to play rather than finding the cartridge (not least to avoid damage to the alpine by moving it about too much), and yes, sometimes I play games I dont own.

 

Big f*cking deal! Piracy is not evil, and I'll defend my right to do whatever the hell I want to do.

[Pocket]

Dumping a ROM and distribute it (or sell it or whatever) IS illegal.

Playing (by any means, even an emulator) a copy of a commercial game you do not own IS illegal.

 

Having the memory of a device mapped to 800000 is NOT illegal.

 

 

Here you go Seb, a statement of intent made earlier in this thread.

 

I'm 110% behind this, with the rom emulation feature.

 

I've got a pretty substantial set of games, about 40-50 as a rough guess, including some paid for homebrew, and some downloaded homebrew. I have an alpine, and a reasonable set of dumped roms, which I often load into the alpine to play rather than finding the cartridge (not least to avoid damage to the alpine by moving it about too much), and yes, sometimes I play games I dont own.

 

Big f*cking deal! Piracy is not evil, and I'll defend my right to do whatever the hell I want to do.

 

It doesn't change the FACT the CF is NOT illegal.

[Pocket]

I have asked this several days ago, but nobody answered...

 

 

I genuinely do not understand the complaints - they seem ludicrous! No one looks at the 2600 scene and complains about the Cuttle cart or emulation - hell, such things have only helped the 2600 homebrew scene become bigger! I mean really, does anyone really think there's going to be some kind of roaring trade in Jaguar piracy because of a device like the CF? C'mon, give your head a shake.

 

You are right, but the few people leading the drama are not honest enough to admit the Cuttle Cart (and other similar devices, on ALL platforms) helped to develop the homebrew scene. In fact, I have not seen a single example to show the contrary.

 

Er, hasn't the obvious size difference between the 2600 and the Jaguar homebrew scene already been discussed?

 

As I said before, the 2600 scene is bigger than the Jaguar one, I agree with that. But, the compact flash devices (or similar ones) exists for many others platforms, and it never killed them. On the contrary, it helped the develop the homebrew scene. Now, if you have an existing example wich could prove the contrary I would be happy to hear about that. Maybe I missed something in my researchs.

[Orion_]

JagChris > and what about the atari flash cart and the alpine board, are they illegal ?

Edited September 29, 2006 by Orion_

[agradeneu]

Dumping a ROM and distribute it (or sell it or whatever) IS illegal.

Playing (by any means, even an emulator) a copy of a commercial game you do not own IS illegal.

 

Having the memory of a device mapped to 800000 is NOT illegal.

 

 

Here you go Seb, a statement of intent made earlier in this thread.

 

I'm 110% behind this, with the rom emulation feature.

 

I've got a pretty substantial set of games, about 40-50 as a rough guess, including some paid for homebrew, and some downloaded homebrew. I have an alpine, and a reasonable set of dumped roms, which I often load into the alpine to play rather than finding the cartridge (not least to avoid damage to the alpine by moving it about too much), and yes, sometimes I play games I dont own.

 

Big f*cking deal! Piracy is not evil, and I'll defend my right to do whatever the hell I want to do.

 

 

You guys are constantly mixing things. Its pathetic to project the intent of some individuals onto Jagware intentions or worse - onto the purpose of CF.

The case is pretty clear, like Seb described it. The CF is NO way illegal. Write that in your books.

If someone decides to dump a ROM and play it HE has to take care of the consequences. If someone distributes ROMs via Internet HE is responsible for that. Piracy starts if you manipulate or illegally copy and distribute SOFTWARE you do not own.

BTW copying Jag CDs is pretty trivial. Now, is the Jag CD a device for piracy?

[Zerosquare]

I tell you this much, I don't weant people handing out copies of my game once it is done as it is crap dudes, and that is that.

*sigh* I have said this before...

 

Since your game has not been released yet, all you have to do is to include detection code to be sure that it won't run on the CF.

 

For existing games, we're looking at a solution to "block" the ones whose developers don't want to see on the CF.

[Songbird]

Just as flash carts and Alpine boards have been instrumental to my development process over the past 8 years, I can see some legitimate reasons why cart address space compatibility (i.e. the ability to load and play cart ROMs) is a useful feature for Jag CF.

 

Having said that, if someone wants to know my opinion, I'd prefer an option to have Songbird ROMs (and perhaps all "post-Atari" ROMs) locked out by default, with an option to unlock on a per-cart basis provided by the owner of the ROMs. I have no idea how feasible that would be for the Jag CF designers, or how I would provide the unlock to individual customers, but off the top of my head it sounds nice.

[Zerosquare]

Thanks for voicing your opinion, Songbird.

[nico89]

what is the release date for the JagCF ??

[Symmetry of TNG]

..un f-----g beleivable.. how such a big part of the "scene" can be so against new HW (=new posibilities!) for a console they love... ?!

 

I just wanted to point out some thing.. lets rewind the tape a bit.. some years ago when there were no CFplans or hardly any encryptionKeys for roms..

Then some aktive developers Aktually! released something new ....on CDROM!!!..... CDs that are soooo hard to make Pirate copies of!...not! (this is an ironic argument yes, but the hole thing is ironic to me so dont bother pointing that out

 

Yet they sold several hundreds of copies, well beyond expectations on this small scene......Despite the fact that CDROMS are more easily copied today than CF will be tomorrow..

 

And if someone (and someone most defenitely will) make new games for CDROM do you think that things will be any different now than before? or more different than CF would be tomorrow?...

Untill some time ago all new games would have come out on cdrom.. (since noone has the ability to make carts today, or we would se more of that wouldnt we?...retorical question).

And all coders accepted this.. despite the fact that cds are so easy to copy... yet they went on with their projects and sold allot of cds!..

 

 

I would say that CF would open more doors than in slams it in the face of older games..

 

Now you (as a developer) would have a hole new universe to play with, so much more options to make GREAT games that would put ALL jaguar games to date in pitty shame!... now all of a sudden easy-copy is a concern? ....how can it be when CDs were not?....

 

I would say that there are some "ankor" people in the scene that keeps pulling backwards in fear that their past will one day not be "#1-ever" anymore (if you beleived that in the first place ie) and that is a pitty for their "followers"... that beleive that hanging on to the past is the future.

 

Instead of calmly make sugestions, licence agrements (instead of fighting the future, take advantage of it, see it as an opportunity not a stab in the back, republish old games in new format do something!), anti-piracy implementations, or whatever... people start a fire or start namecalling the only active coders on the jaguar.. ...(which I might add is also a thing from the PAST!... not the future, we should all be friends people!).

 

The only logical explanation for such a reaction is fear... fear that ones beloved trasures will loose their value...

But people come on! as long as we have hardcore collectors this will never be an issue... and as far as i know the majority of the jagfans are! in one way or another.. so this will never be a problem!...

 

 

As a developer of the present and future I for one is for new hardware that will give me "limiteless power"... and atleast an option to make it harder to copy a game than the past ever was!.... and I cant se any active coder in his right mind going against that statement...

 

 

no.. wasted enough time on this post... Im off doing some real coding =)

 

just my thoughts, dont use them to fule any fire for or against ..please...

cheers

/Symmetry ...embrasing the future..

[MegaData]

 

Since your game has not been released yet, all you have to do is to include detection code to be sure that it won't run on the CF.

 

For existing games, we're looking at a solution to "block" the ones whose developers don't want to see on the CF.

 

I understand this part, but how do prototypes fall into this scheme of yours? Say, some prototype that has at least 5 demos that should not be in public domain according to the seller/creator's threats of legal action against the purchaser... This is a legal prototype purchased from the developer directly but, it appears some illegal copies may exist. Please explain how you're going to do anything for someone in this situation.

 

Jagware shouldn't be going on poll results. A lawyer should decide, then think about my first question here. Are others in a similar situation? It effects legal users. I'm thinking about the people who paid "high ags" for their prized possesions that can be copied and played by illegal users for next to nothing. That is why I am wholeheartedly against being able to play binaries.

[GT Turbo]

So if we follow some people here, that's product :

 

http://www.batronix.com/electronic/circuits/eeprommer.shtml

 

is illegal because you can read and write eproms, like Jaguar cartridges but why nobody stop selling this product ? So if i buy it i can copy Jaguar games YES !!! and nobody can told me STOP IT'S ILLEGAL !! That's great, so better buy this one than a JagCF

 

GT

[+remowilliams]

It effects legal users. I'm thinking about the people who paid "high ags" for their prized possesions that can be copied and played by illegal users for next to nothing. That is why I am wholeheartedly against being able to play binaries.

That is ridiculous. Why would the fact that someone overpaid $600+ for a cart have any bearing on future progress or developments? Why would that have any bearing on the ability of legal cart owners to play binaries?

 

Why do I get the feeling that half of the people voting no here (and elsewhere) are doing so for no other reason then that they somehow feel that their l33t, super duper secret handshake club of ownership is threatened?

 

Having said that, if someone wants to know my opinion, I'd prefer an option to have Songbird ROMs (and perhaps all "post-Atari" ROMs) locked out by default, with an option to unlock on a per-cart basis provided by the owner of the ROMs. I have no idea how feasible that would be for the Jag CF designers, or how I would provide the unlock to individual customers, but off the top of my head it sounds nice.

That would be a cool option That sounds like something similar to the proposed idea for ROM distribution of kenfused's Beef Drop. A uniquely signed binary for owners who purchased the carts, so that they can play it on their CC2 (OMGGGZZZ!!! another PirAt3! device! )

[Htbaa]

That's "Megadeth!"

 

Wasn't it Thomas Edison put his own son in Jail for not being a "Patriot?"

 

To refresh your memory, though spelling may be something of an issue, this thread was trying to ask for opinions on using cartridge games with the Jag CF. I've pointed out reasons why that is illegal. Try READING the Hasbro Release of rights. It means that developers don't have to buy licenses to release new games and says Atari holds all rights to their properties. You won't do well in a court of law if you follow the yes votes in the poll and end up in front of a judge with a JagCF holding ROMs on it. If you don't accept no votes, why have the option?

 

GT, perhaps you could rephrase that "one" question?

Nice comeback potsy.. you can't hold the developer of a product responsible for the misuse by the consumer. Just because it could be used for illegal use does not make the device itself Illegal, your statement WOULD NOT hold up in court.

 

This is true, but, for instance they sell a cf cart to Htbaa when he in fact stated he would use it to pirate games, well, thats a crime you could be held accountable for. As the developer of the product knows his intentions before the purchase, they are then helping him to pirate games. This is a very dangerous road indeed.

 

Robert

 

 

What makes you think I'll go pirate every game I can get when the CF is out? I never said that. Most games I don't own aren't worth my money or time (that's something I can only find out if I buy the game) so the CF is a great way to check those games out. If I like the game I get it. And who's saying that I solely want it for playing roms? I've always been interested in Jag developement but never got to it since I don't have the proper equipment to test my stuff. With the CF I can. If you don't want me buying the CF when it comes out than that's too bad for you. Sue me or something, the American way!

 

It's funny to see that in most topics about the existing flash card people don't have a problem with it, since that thing exists for roms.

[MegaData]

It effects legal users. I'm thinking about the people who paid "high ags" for their prized possesions that can be copied and played by illegal users for next to nothing. That is why I am wholeheartedly against being able to play binaries.

That is ridiculous. Why would the fact that someone overpaid $600+ for a cart have any bearing on future progress or developments? Why would that have any bearing on the ability of legal cart owners to play binaries?

 

Why do I get the feeling that half of the people voting no here (and elsewhere) are doing so for no other reason then that they somehow feel that their l33t, super duper secret handshake club of ownership is threatened?

 

What is unworthy of serious consideration? Where do you see progress with the CF? It is less productive than a BJL cable and an ancient computer. It's likely cheaper, (not knowing the price) faster, and more efficient to use what we have. I wasn't talking about CARTS at all. Prototypes generally do not exist on Cartridge unless you burn them.

 

I no longer belong to the underground... being one who voted no, I'm not sure why you get that feeling at all but, I can tell you, I don't have to ask why I feel the way I do. I'm not one for porting ST games, R-Type, or using a Cuttle Cart. I would love to do a surprise inspection of anyone with one of these if they are able to play ROMs, though.

[Orion_]

Where do you see progress with the CF? It is less productive than a BJL cable and an ancient computer.

do you actually know what the CF is capable of and why it was made before talking about the "loading rom" option ?

 

It's likely cheaper, (not knowing the price) faster, and more efficient to use what we have.

obviously not ...

Edited September 29, 2006 by Orion_