The homebrew flood ... good thing, right?

[jaybird3rd]

I'll be glad to name two worthless homebrew efforts: N.E.R.D.S. and The Last Ninja. Both received very negative reviews here on AtariAge, and both deserved them. They are a perfect example of somebody noticing that there's (potentially) money to be made in limited-edition homebrew games for vintage systems, and creating a slipshod product specifically intended to become a "Rare Collector's Item", sold at high profit. These people are just like the crappy third-party game vendors who tried to cash in on the video game craze in the years before the crash (Mythicon, Froggo, etc), and who succeeded only in diluting the market with sub-par product.

 

To prevent something similar from happening in homebrew, I think that there needs to be open and honest feedback, offered through communities like this one. This can serve either to steer collectors away from the bad games, or even to kill the bad games before they're finished. This may sound harsh, but not every novice programmer who's just learned to cobble something together with Batari BASIC deserves to have their creations put on a professionally-produced cartridge and sold for $40 a pop. If they want only to enjoy the games for themselves, that's all well and good, but there should be strict standards of quality for games that are offered as commercial products. To unequivocally encourage everyone and praise everything in the name of "supporting the community" only does a disservice to the community.

[+DZ-Jay]

There's a lot of brown nosing when it comes to homebrews and their makers here. People don't want to offend them (and possibly demotivate them) I guess. Which in turn kind of kills any constructive criticism sadly.

This is unfortunately true. I think constructive criticism is a very valuable tool for home-brewers. After all, we're only putting games out there to share them with others.

 

Personally, I would prefer that people tell me directly what they think of my games, including any negative feedback. I believe that to greatest extent this has happened. Particularly, from those who wrote game reviews.

 

It only makes my efforts stronger to learn what works and doesn't. As my wife tells me when she asks for feedback on her cooking, "if you don't like it and you don't tell me, then it's your own fault if you end up eating it every day. :P"

 

dZ.

[VectorGamer]

This may sound harsh, but not every novice programmer who's just learned to cobble something together with Batari BASIC deserves to have their creations put on a professionally-produced cartridge and sold for $40 a pop. If they want only to enjoy the games for themselves, that's all well and good, but there should be strict standards of quality for games that are offered as commercial products. To unequivocally praise everything in the name of "supporting the community" only does a disservice to the community.

 

I agree but at the same time they have the right to sell their creations on cartridge if they wish. Fortunately, YouTube videos of the gameplay speak louder than in-game screenshots.

 

I have been at gaming expos where exclusive limited release homebrew games were being sold. Some games were sitting on a table without the game even being demo'd on a console. You really have to be careful unless you have money to burn.

 

 

There's a lot of brown nosing when it comes to homebrews and their makers here. People don't want to offend them (and possibly demotivate them) I guess. Which in turn kind of kills any constructive criticism sadly.

 

That's a problem with AtariAge. Typically what happens is that someone posts feedback on a project and then that person gets ganged up on. For example, see Bob's thread on Astro Blaster for the 7800 where people were offering feedback and a member jumped to Bob's defense. WTF?

 

I've seen a couple of homebrew projects in as many months where the gameplay was so shallow and repetitive. LMAO at these people that will fork out $40-$60 for a piece of shit game that has no replayability.

[+Gemintronic]

@jaybird3rd: Those are from 2007. I agree that those don't look like cart worthy releases. The only reason Batari BASIC should have been a factor is that the community might have given the homebrewer more advice. That is, if the homebrewer actually asked.

[+save2600]

@theloon: I know what you're trying to say about the evolution of homebrews by referring to the 2007 date, but that doesn't apply to those two turds as there were several other great offerings from before then:

 

Oystron

Alfred Challenge

Edtris

This Planet Sucks

Okie Dokie

Skeleton+

Vault Assault

A-VCS-Tec Challenge

Mondo Pong

 

...just to name a few. Make no mistake about it; N.E.R.D.'s and The Last Ninja spat in the face of expectations by 2007.

[+Gemintronic]

What about coming up with a stickied list of expectations for new homebrew? It should interest those who are involved in this coming flood. It would greatly interest me though I'll most likely miss this first wave.

[jaybird3rd]

I agree but at the same time they have the right to sell their creations on cartridge if they wish. Fortunately, YouTube videos of the gameplay speak louder than in-game screenshots.

Absolutely. When I said that homebrews need to meet a high standard, I didn't mean to imply that anyone should try to dictate which homebrews are sold and which are not. The collectors and players themselves should be free to apply their own standards and to make their own judgments: to speak out about games that they feel are poor, or to praise games that they think are great, either in reviews or in forum threads like this one, without feeling that they are "hurting the community" by doing so. The homebrew community is big enough now that it isn't going to collapse if a few developers are told that they need to go back to the drawing board, or even that they should find another creative outlet if they're interested in selling their work.

 

That's a problem with AtariAge. Typically what happens is that someone posts feedback on a project and then that person gets ganged up on. For example, see Bob's thread on Astro Blaster for the 7800 where people were offering feedback and a member jumped to Bob's defense. WTF?

 

I've seen a couple of homebrew projects in as many months where the gameplay was so shallow and repetitive. LMAO at these people that will fork out $40-$60 for a piece of shit game that has no replayability.

Yes. It's unfortunate that so many people seem reluctant to offer this kind of criticism, because as others have said, I would value it highly if I were a sincere developer who produced a game that needs improvement. It would give me the information I need to fix my game before it was too late to do so. If a developer were to respond to such criticism negatively, it would only make me suspect that they're in it merely to make a quick buck, and that they're not really interested in doing quality work.

[slab0meat]

 

 

Well, then give examples. Otherwise it's just bias and slander. If you're going to risk being rude then at least back up your statements. Keep this an adult conversation and be responsible for your words.

 

@thegoldenband: Not talking about you You just needed clarity.

 

UPDATE: I guess slab0meat decided to pop in, make an insulting remark and quickly go offline. I guess I was asking too much.

 

How is there any bias or slander when it's a general statement? Please be specific who the bias is towards and who's being slandered. My apologies for not sitting here pressing F5 in this thread.

 

He stated an opinion. Feels that the 2600 homebrew scene has been harmed somewhat by subpar homebrews. Naming specific ones doesn't change one thing about the opinion, only serves your curiosity. Are you honestly going to tell me you couldn't understand his first sentence? Please.

[+Gemintronic]

This is an open discussion on a public forum. If you don't know how to explain yourself then leave. It was an unneeded, intentionally rude comment.

[+LS650]

I think the feedback thing depends plenty on the developer's attitude. Some folks are very good with posting 'betas', and inviting constructive criticism. That's terrific - the developer then gets feedback on controls, difficulty level, bugs, suggestions for improvement, etc.

 

Other times, an item just gets made available for purchase. No ROM release, no invitation for input, etc. You simply see some screenshots or video, and have to hope that the release meets your gaming expectation, and sometimes it doesn't - in fact, sometimes it's not even close!

[slab0meat]

This is an open discussion on a public forum. If you don't know how to explain yourself then leave. It was an unneeded, intentionally rude comment.

 

 

So, are you still saying you couldn't understand his simple statement of opinion?

 

I explained myself perfectly. I said I understood what he said. WHO is being slandered? That's a big accusation that I'd love to know the answer to, though it's not exactly on-topic.

[slab0meat]

Other times, an item just gets made available for purchase. No ROM release, no invitation for input, etc. You simply see some screenshots or video, and have to hope that the release meets your gaming expectation, and sometimes it doesn't - in fact, sometimes it's not even close!

 

That's true, much like most modern-day-console releases. If developers don't want feedback while making a game, the best feedback might be a lack of sales.

 

 

EDIT:sorry, should have just edited my first post to include this...........

 

Edited January 15, 2014 by slab0meat

[+Gemintronic]

So, are you still saying you couldn't understand his simple statement of opinion?

 

I explained myself perfectly. I said I understood what he said. WHO is being slandered? That's a big accusation that I'd love to know the answer to, though it's not exactly on-topic.

 

I'll chalk it up to my caffeine withdrawal.

 

Maybe you weren't making a side comment on my own understanding with "I understand the premise just fine."

 

If that's the case it's my turn to apologize. Sometimes when there's not much to read I read too much into it.

[Fushek]

@theloon: I know what you're trying to say about the evolution of homebrews by referring to the 2007 date, but that doesn't apply to those two turds

 

Hey Loon ... I heard that your Drunken Pooper game was a real turd!

 

(And I wonder why my wife and kids simply shake their heads at my humor ...)

[+Gemintronic]

 

Hey Loon ... I heard that your Drunken Pooper game was a real turd!

 

(And I wonder why my wife and kids simply shake their heads at my humor ...)

 

Yeah, that's a perfect example of a "release" that wont fit in an Intellivision box. Jaguar maybe.

[+save2600]

 

Yeah, that's a perfect example of a "release" that wont fit in an Intellivision box. Jaguar maybe.

 

Ouch! Careful now... you'll be upsetting someone else's rotten apple cart.

[+Gemintronic]

 

Ouch! Careful now... you'll be upsetting someone else's rotten apple cart.

 

Don't worry.. only the tub gets hit!

[+thegoldenband]

Unless you give clear examples your premise is hard to understand.

I think jaybird3rd picked two very good examples, but otherwise I'm sure you can understand why I'd be reluctant to name names. There's no real upside to doing so, and I also think the kind of person who isn't able to see that they haven't put enough TLC into a game is reasonably likely to also be the kind of person who can't really handle constructive criticism. In both cases, the issue is more or less the same: ego.

 

I also don't think most of the substandard VCS homebrews I have in mind are motivated by money (I could be wrong, though!). Rather, I think some people are more excited by the idea of having made something than the work that goes into actually making and, especially, polishing it. It's like a musician who's constantly writing songs and releasing records, but never takes the time to make them deeply wrought or improve his/her abilities, because what turns them on is the list of accomplishments -- the idea of being able to write "my 20th album!" or "my 14th symphony!" Many people like that have a very low tolerance for frustration, so it's easier to finish projects ASAP and appear to be prolific -- but you really can't do good work in any field unless you can handle frustration, get your hands dirty, and work through it.

 

(And in turn, that touches on an incredibly old argument that goes back to Aristotle, and basically boils down to "getting your hands dirty is for slaves" -- a philosophy clearly held by all those foolish souls who wander in and expect a programmer to drop everything and implement their Great Ideas for a game! )

[+Gemintronic]

Thanks for explaining that. It still feels a little like a blanket statement without specific examples. Could you PM me with the relevant titles? At least I could research in better detail what went wrong so I could avoid it myself.

[+thegoldenband]

I don't know, I think the poor-standard work kind of speaks for itself (BTW I don't have any of your work in mind), and to be honest for the last few years I've been fairly detached from the Atari 2600 homebrew scene so I'm not really current. I'd rather focus on the positive.

[+Gemintronic]

What about this idea I mentioned previously?

 

What about coming up with a stickied list of expectations for new homebrew? It should interest those who are involved in this coming flood. It would greatly interest me though I'll most likely miss this first wave.

[yell0w_lantern]

So I just mention that two of your products are the ONLY homebrews I've bought and your reply contains no appreciation at all but does have a snub.

 

 

And, don't even bother trying to dump it, you won't be able to.

 

Wow.

[carlsson]

Perhaps what the world needs are more flash and memory card based devices for all sorts of systems, priced so low that everyone interested can obtain one. It would mean that those who want to see/play their own games on actual hardware, could give away or even try to sell ROM images cheap instead of having to manufacture individual cartridges. After all, it is a rather big investment even for a small run and as the market expands, those interested in homebrew at all (*) will have so many choices that the lesser games won't be able to sell after all.

 

Also one difference between 1983 and 2014 is that now you can post screenshots and videos, perhaps freely downloadable ROMs with one level so customers in advance can try it, greatly reducing the risks of being disappointed after purchase. Another difference is that back then it was state of the trade with options to move onto something else (e.g. home computer gaming) but now it is retro so what else would you move onto if you get fed up with Atari 2600, Colecovision & Intellivision?

 

(*) I have a feeling many collectors not present on forums like this, mainly are interested in the original games in perfect condition, possibly with the addition of reproductions of previously lost, unreleased games from the earlier days. I know a number of collectors myself who neglect homebrew games, no matter how great they are, to be included in their collections.

[Games For Your Intellivision]

I will put anyone's original Intellivision game on cartridge for them if they wish to sell it. Of course, I am always looking for quality software to publish games, but I won't publish just anything.

 

As a publisher, one has to be very careful of deciding whether the quality AND the marketablity of a game deserves a full 'complete in box' treatment. Professionally printing boxes, manuals and overlays is an expensive propsition, and one has to be very careful. If you make a mistake, it can cost you. Match 5 is a good example. I am totally convinced of its quality. It has been chosen one of the top 10 games of 2013 by Classic Game Room. (And deservedly so) However, it is a really difficult game to sell. I won't make the same mistake with a puzzle game again. At least, I won't dedicate a cartridge to ONE puzzle game complete in box.

 

Since I have been doing Intellivision publishing, I have learned one thing....that you can't please everyone.....you will ALWAYS get criticism for whatever. Everyone has an opinion. That is ok, but I think the thing to do is to do what you think is right, and keep in mind the criticism....if a LOT of people say the same thing, you should probably change what you are doing.

 

I had someone tell me that they liked the quality of the packaging of Paddle Party, but that the art was terrible. I've had other people tell me the art is great.....I like the art.....so, I have no problem with it....but if a ton of people tell me they hate my art, I might think of changing it. I believe the same thing goes with game design.

[+Gemintronic]

I had someone tell me that they liked the quality of the packaging of Paddle Party, but that the art was terrible. I've had other people tell me the art is great.....I like the art.....so, I have no problem with it....but if a ton of people tell me they hate my art, I might think of changing it. I believe the same thing goes with game design.

 

How does changing the game design work after a game has been completed? Do you work out a new mini contract for the changes? Just curious about the process.