Keatah Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 You are right that a software emulator is much more flexible. In fact I already have a Raspberry PI lying around that I intend to use as emulation system. +1 for software emulation. It is more flexible like you say.. Some emulators have been in the works since the 1990's and they have accumulated an impressive repertoire of subtle refinements over the ensuing years. Some of these features and refinements are directly attributable to the keyboard, file system, storage capability, and versatility, of a PC-style platform. Some emulator developers frequent AtariAge and if there are issues with their emulators they're good at getting fixes out in a timely manner. I don't think you will see this same level of support for a simple core on a console made to plugged into a Tv set and operated via gamepad controllers. But one thing that still annoys me about emulators on a PC is that the screen refresh rate is usually 60Hz (for LCD screens, old fashioned tubes usually can go higher) while the emulated system often runs in 50Hz. I find that MAME does really well in handling varied refresh rates in conjunction with many of my LCD monitors. For troublesome "corner-cases" I use a utility called Refresh Rate. And my LCD monitor is indeed switching rates because the OSD menu says so and I can tune or de-tune a game and get scrolling jitters, or banding, or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 (edited) One other thing with emulators is that you frequently need to set them up to your liking. Assigning ROM locations, save game & screenshots locations, BIOS locations.. All that. Not forgetting to fine-adjust the video modes, resolutions, scalings, upsampling filters, graphic library and sound options. And the biggie, controllers! Each emulation does things its own way, but at the same time provides for great customization. It is not common for people to adjust all the above on a game-by-game instance if they chose to simply set up a 5000-in-1 cabinet that does nothing excellently. Then you've got other enthusiasts that have maybe 50-200 games. And each one is tweaked to perfection. Each with its own .ini and controller.cfg file. Monitor rates, depths, widths and heights, sound rates, special action buttons, controller linearity, layouts, all that good stuff and more. All of that can take the better part of an evening for each individual game. All of that brings a near arcade experience to the home. But only better. Better because of better sound and display devices and YOU get to pick the perfect controller setup to match how you play. Edited July 22, 2015 by Keatah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 (edited) Why would you not just buy a Pi (or use your existing PC) with an emulator? Which *will* be updated far, far more frequently and with much higher accuracy than any of these cores. Maybe because marketing will play up the perceived "hardware accuracy and stability" of FPGA as opposed to the stutter-prone, buggy, and frequently-updated-because-they-can't-get-it-right myth of software emulation. Not to mention the supposed imperfections in software emulation. If it's done in hardware it has to be better. Fuck that..Software emulation for the win! A new console, with new games, on carts? - yeah, might be interesting. Could be if they have games I want to play. A new console running emulators in FPGA that boot games from carts? - f. that. Boring, Limited, Uninspiring.. On the other hand software emulation on PC or MAC or R-Pi is longer lived, more stable, infinitely more adjustable and tunable. And bugs are generally addressed as they're reported. And updating these "difficult-to-use" (ahem! cough cough) software emulator is a snap! Edited July 22, 2015 by Keatah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 (edited) Biggest issue with MAME is there's no "one layout fits all". Each game had uniquely customised layouts which don't always work well together. Even with a system like SNES, there's two good button layouts for six button arcade style controlls, depending on the type of game: Fighters (MK, SFII, et al) work best with: [Y][X][L] [A][R] Platformers (DKC, Mario World, et al) work best with: [L][X][R] [Y][A] And then you've got to cram that fourth Neo Geo button somewhere or drill a new hole... And you need two P1 joysticks or a switchable 4-way/8-way stick for classic arcade games. Throw in trackballs and spinners, joystick/buttons for 4-players, a steering wheel, pedals, and gear box, until your control panel starts to look more and more like a space shuttle cockpit... Edited July 22, 2015 by stardust4ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 And updating these "difficult-to-use" (ahem! cough cough) software emulator is a snap! If the FPGA core is on the cart with the game.... yeah, that's not going to happen, either. I assume once they reach the kickstarter goal they can keep the cash without ever having to deliver anything..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaysWithWolves Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 I assume once they reach the kickstarter goal they can keep the cash without ever having to deliver anything..... Without trying to disparage Kennedy or his team, that's a very realistic concern that donators should keep in mind. Even Kickstarter teams with the best-of-intentions have failed due to manufacturing problems or unforeseen costs. I hope for donators' sakes the delay in getting a Kickstarter going is heavy research, though feature creep does have me a bit concerned. I also don't understand why not being able to update software is a benefit. Sure, ideally games would come out 100% bug-free but that's not always the case (Jag DOOM?). And while DLC certainly could be abused, some expansions bring new life to a game. Even a thumb drive could bring bug fixes and expansions to this system. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 I also don't understand why not being able to update software is a benefit. Sure, ideally games would come out 100% bug-free but that's not always the case (Jag DOOM?). And while DLC certainly could be abused, some expansions bring new life to a game. Even a thumb drive could bring bug fixes and expansions to this system. I agree with this 100%. Some people seem to think being able to apply updates automatically means that it gives a publisher license to release a buggy game and fix it after the fact, but that's too simplistic of a viewpoint. If this thing is indeed a success and indeed has games released, it's a guarantee at least some of the games will have bugs. That's unavoidable, period. There was no mechanism for most games in the past to be updated (outside of occasionally being able to do a media exchange with the publisher), but that was more a technological and logistical limitation than a philosophical one. In any case, we've had plenty of games on all mediums - including cartridges - with game breaking bugs and we have the technological capacity to address those bugs post release, so it's something I think they should strongly reconsider for a variety of reasons (including of course not wanting to piss off valuable customers with potentially irreparably broken games that are impossible to replace for practical financial reasons). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Maybe the cart should contain simply an SD card so they can claim (like the 64DD) that you can make "permanent" modification to the game world that enhance the experience and make it unique and dependent on your actions .... nevermind!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagCD Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Maybe the cart should contain simply an SD card so they can claim (like the 64DD) that you can make "permanent" modification to the game world that enhance the experience and make it unique and dependent on your actions .... nevermind!! That would be probably the ideal way to do it. I'm not sure what the actual motivation of the RVGS is. If it is to sell cartridges, then providing an SD card option would be contrary to the goals. They really need to better explain the stated goal of the console. Is it to develop new games with a Retro vibe? That would be my guess -- but talk about being a tiny niche of the market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
108 Stars Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Honestly, I couldn't care less what is inside the cartridge. Whether it is EEPROM, Mask ROM, Flash ROM or Magic, as long as it stores the game and plays it without loading times, fine with me. I also don't think it is meant as a scam. I just think it is a really bad idea. A niche within the Retro gaming niche. Why would I want a console to play the same games on that are also published on other retro systems? Why buy software with the artificial limitations of old hardware when in fact the system could do much more? OUYA devs suffer from terrible sales; and compared to this, the OUYA has real mainstream appeal. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 (edited) Maybe the cart should contain simply an SD card so they can claim (like the 64DD) that you can make "permanent" modification to the game world that enhance the experience and make it unique and dependent on your actions .... nevermind!! One potential issue/perk with patches applied to an SD card or USB device inserted into the console, assuming the RetroVGS is not protected by crippling DRM, is fan modding of games. Whether that's an issue or a perk, is up for debate. Edited July 23, 2015 by stardust4ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Honestly, I couldn't care less what is inside the cartridge. Whether it is EEPROM, Mask ROM, Flash ROM or Magic, as long as it stores the game and plays it without loading times, fine with me. I also don't think it is meant as a scam. I'm assuming there will still be SOME load times save for the really small games. Modern games - even those on cartridges (3DS and Vita come to mind, even though neither is a traditional cartridge) - still tend to have some type of small load times to decompress or load in data. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+save2600 Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 ...we've had plenty of games on all mediums - including cartridges - with game breaking bugs and we have the technological capacity to address those bugs post release.. I seem to recall a time when "game breaking bugs" in games (especially on cartridge) were extremely rare. 7800's Impossible Mission comes to mind, but I wonder how many other examples across the various platforms of yore there were/are... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
108 Stars Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 I'm assuming there will still be SOME load times save for the really small games. Modern games - even those on cartridges (3DS and Vita come to mind, even though neither is a traditional cartridge) - still tend to have some type of small load times to decompress or load in data. That's very technical. If you take it like that, there are no games without loading times, except for those that fit in the RAM. It is just that cartridge games have loading times that are too short to notice. There's a few SNES games with noticeable loading times for example. I am not sure how fast it would work for the kind of games the RVGS will have; when I play my Vita I get noticeable loading times in the big 3D games, but in Indies it is also borderline unnoticeable most of the time. The DS with ist 512MB Cards max IIRC felt like they were None whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaysWithWolves Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 (edited) I seem to recall a time when "game breaking bugs" in games (especially on cartridge) were extremely rare. 7800's Impossible Mission comes to mind, but I wonder how many other examples across the various platforms of yore there were/are... I'd suggest E.T. epitomizes everything that RVGS promises we won't see, and that's no where nearly as complex as something like Shovel Knight apparently is. Shovel Knight itself has had several patches. Sure some of those are related to hardware compatibility issues, but there are a few that are game play and look like they would have been game breakers on RVGS. A few Jaguar games could use an extra round of QA or optimization, but I'm not sure if they count as some may have been rushed at the last minute. I've never played it, but Supercross 3D sounds almost unplayable with low FPS. The aforementioned Jag DOOM occasionally drops JagLink games. Edited July 23, 2015 by PlaysWithWolves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+save2600 Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 ^ I might not have the lingo down or am using the phrase "game breaking" as too literal... but E.T. isn't as buggy to me as it is to some that just can't deal with the pits. Or its style of gameplay. Many Jaguar games suffer from QC or lack of optimizations, yes - but that's almost an entirely different topic. lol NES has its share of 3rd party bugged/glitchy games too, most of which I wasn't even aware of until the AVGN started exploiting them. Guess I'm mostly trying to think of games from the pre-crash era, that were allowed to be marketed, "burned" to ROM and sold on cartridge that had any serious enough "game breaking" bugs in them. Game breaking as in; cannot finish the game, scoring mechanics flawed, character gets stuck somewhere in the maze, game freezes/crashes - whatever. You hardly saw *that* brand of game breaking bugs back then. Even when it came to software sold on disk or tape for the computers of the time. Not saying it never happened, but always thought it as rare or extremely rare when you'd see revision numbers on a C64 game for instance. With few exceptions, back then, when a game was sold, that was that - AND YOU LIKED IT! Unlike today. And I'm sure an argument will be made about the complexity of software today, inherently buggy systems, buggy resources, greater number of people working on pieces of the software and all that. Understandable - but again, the systems and games back then were nearly immune comparatively. And that's just one of the reasons vintage gaming will forever be special to most of us. And why we're hoping that a system like the Retro VGS will harken back to *those* days. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
108 Stars Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 There were quite a few of those on European homecomputers. There was a very homebrew era in that time, and many games were made by teenagers in their bedroom within a few weeks and then published and sold. Even BASIC games. Lots of buggy stuff. I agree though that as the industry matured game breaking bugs became fewer and fewer. Now that everything is supposed to be online and patchable, the same care is no longer taken. But the fact that game development has become so much more complex also factors in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaysWithWolves Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 ^ I might not have the lingo down or am using the phrase "game breaking" as too literal... but E.T. isn't as buggy to me as it is to some that just can't deal with the pits. Or its style of gameplay. Fair enough, though some simple fixes seems to take care of the largest issues (including annoying the player with the pits ). Honestly, I can't recall the games I've played where I may have found bugs. Maybe this would help? http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameBreakingBug While not pre-crash, it's interesting that the Nintendo DS Bubble Bobble Revolution had to be recalled-and-replaced. Also for the DS, Age of Empires could actually brick the game with an improper save. Crazy. Good question, though. Perhaps Bill Loguidice has a better memory than I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaysWithWolves Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 And the mystery builds: RETRO VGS 58 mins · Hey Everyone! We are still here and working feverishly to forward the RETRO VGS. Working on some BIG things now that could have positive lasting effects on this venture. Hold tight we will be lighting things back up soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 That's very technical. If you take it like that, there are no games without loading times, except for those that fit in the RAM. It is just that cartridge games have loading times that are too short to notice. There's a few SNES games with noticeable loading times for example. I am not sure how fast it would work for the kind of games the RVGS will have; when I play my Vita I get noticeable loading times in the big 3D games, but in Indies it is also borderline unnoticeable most of the time. The DS with ist 512MB Cards max IIRC felt like they were None whatsoever. That's what I was implying. The simpler games I would think would have no loading times, but I would imagine if they ever do do really complex games then it's possible we'll see them. At this point I think they're probably targeting the former, but we'll see. Fair enough, though some simple fixes seems to take care of the largest issues (including annoying the player with the pits ). Honestly, I can't recall the games I've played where I may have found bugs. Maybe this would help? http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameBreakingBug While not pre-crash, it's interesting that the Nintendo DS Bubble Bobble Revolution had to be recalled-and-replaced. Also for the DS, Age of Empires could actually brick the game with an improper save. Crazy. Good question, though. Perhaps Bill Loguidice has a better memory than I. The site you linked to is excellent and incredibly comprehensive. When I was referring to what I was referring to it was more to the idea that tons of games pre-Internet era had bugs, some of which caused the game to be unwinnable, or, more likely, caused it to crash at certain times (that's of course to disregard simple glitches, which may not be fixable). Naturally, this was more prevalent on the computer side, but consoles did have their share of buggy releases as well (everyone knows of the Atari 7800 version of Impossible Mission, for instance). The ultimate point was was that it's very, very difficult to avoid a buggy release no matter how much testing happens, and, with today's technology, having the ability to fix said bugs should be seen as a good, rather than negative feature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Quote RETRO VGS 58 mins · Hey Everyone! We are still here and working feverishly to forward the RETRO VGS. Working on some BIG things now that could have positive lasting effects on this venture. Hold tight we will be lighting things back up soon. Probably just means they've got a plethora of LED colours now as well. Expect more bullshit, no solid facts, and a lot of hot air. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+madman Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 So their update is that they're going to have an update soon? Truly fascinating stuff. I found this thread interesting: http://www.gamegavel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7453 As of the end of June they still have no concrete plans on how to get sound out of the console? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 As of the end of June they still have no concrete plans on how to get sound out of the console? I'm sure the game devs can write an FPGA core for a Soundblaster..... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 (edited) I'd suggest E.T. epitomizes everything that RVGS promises we won't see... Don't hold your breath. ET has been ported to the NES, along with a couple other infamous titles... Edited July 24, 2015 by stardust4ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+madman Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 I'm sure the game devs can write an FPGA core for a Soundblaster..... Adlib is more retro I would think. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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