Willard Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 despite my reservations in regard to the retro VGS I still think it'd be nice to see it have carts with end labels. whatever the reason the later cart systems didn't have them (32x / Jaguar / N64 / A'Can), I find it really annoying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaysWithWolves Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 The molds cost nothing because selling translucent cases and carts paid for them. Keep in mind these are top grade P7 steel molds and not aluminum meant for much smaller runs. Nearly every section, button and light tubes would likely need their own mold tooling. "Start up costs" (per the FAQ) would also include design an CAD work for each part, prototyping, etc. That's not to say it wouldn't be much cheaper than $500,000 today (no reason to over-build them, for example), but it does sound a little more complex than at first blush. A hat tip to Zerosquare for the Ebay screenshot, linked above. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+madman Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Jag was not the first cartridge to have "handles!" And the Odyssey^2 as well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) About the molds .... I understand the various famiclones looks like cack but I seriously doubt their molds costs so much. Also if they decided to stay small all the Radica/Jaxx molds I doubt costed so much as well. Heck how about the Flashbacks ... they sell for cheap and they use custom molds for sure ... so I am not sure what are they talking about. Anyway they did what they did so let's see what comes up the other end of the process ... I was so disappointed with NeoGeoX that I don't have much expectations for this one ... time will tell. Edited July 21, 2015 by phoenixdownita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 I also like the idea of system replication cartridges. Basically these addon modules would let us play old school games in high def, but properly and in a non-infringing way unlike the Retron5. That is starting to sound better already. Provided those games are made available in a non infringing way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Provided those games are made available in a non infringing way.Cartridge adapters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 So without the handle, Jaguar games wouldn't have been able to be properly seated? And how does a handle aid in inserting a cart into a system? It's a wonder anyone was able to properly seat games in their other Atari consoles without a handle. Must've been pure luck. Classic marketing BS. They could just admit that it would cost £££ to have the mould adapted and thats cash that they would rather spend on more important things. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
108 Stars Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 despite my reservations in regard to the retro VGS I still think it'd be nice to see it have carts with end labels. whatever the reason the later cart systems didn't have them (32x / Jaguar / N64 / A'Can), I find it really annoying. I find always find that concern fot end labels funny.. I don't know where you are from, but I never heard anyone talk about end labels before I visited international Forums and watched specifically American YouTube videos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+rdemming Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Assuming Kevin Horton and AA's kevtris are one and the same person, he was well on the way to FPGA versions of several consoles back in 2013 :- http://atariage.com/forums/topic/214384-has-anyone-worked-on-an-fpga-atari-7800/?p=2805666 If they have indeed cores that perfectly emulate classic machines, I hope that they become available for general emulation where you can provide your own ROM files. Then this machine would have a much better chance as only "Retro-VGS" games won't pull me over the line. Robert 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) If they have indeed cores that perfectly emulate classic machines, I hope that they become available for general emulation where you can provide your own ROM files. Then this machine would have a much better chance as only "Retro-VGS" games won't pull me over the line. Robert Why would you not just buy a Pi (or use your existing PC) with an emulator? Which *will* be updated far, far more frequently and with much higher accuracy than any of these cores. A new console, with new games, on carts? - yeah, might be interesting. A new console running emulators in FPGA that boot games from carts? - f. that. Edited July 21, 2015 by CyranoJ 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willard Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 I find always find that concern for end labels funny.. I don't know where you are from, but I never heard anyone talk about end labels before I visited international Forums and watched specifically American YouTube videos. Back in the day they weren't all that big of a deal for me because the games cost like $50-$60 and I (nor anyone I knew) had a collection much greater than 10 or so carts. And only bought for like 1 or two systems so the games were often strewn about the floor in their room or something. These days I find them a lot more useful with over 100 games or so in a collection, and trying to keep them tidy in a drawer .etc. One of those things that isn't a problem until it becomes one I guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
108 Stars Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Lucky for me, most Systems I collected for did not come with cardboard boxes, so 95% of my games are complete. No big amount of loose carts here to dig through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+rdemming Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Why would you not just buy a Pi (or use your existing PC) with an emulator? Which *will* be updated far, far more frequently and with much higher accuracy than any of these cores. A new console, with new games, on carts? - yeah, might be interesting. A new console running emulators in FPGA that boot games from carts? - f. that. You are right that a software emulator is much more flexible. In fact I already have a Raspberry PI lying around that I intend to use as emulation system. But one thing that still annoys me about emulators on a PC is that the screen refresh rate is usually 60Hz (for LCD screens, old fashioned tubes usually can go higher) while the emulated system often runs in 50Hz. This results in jerky scrolling in games while it was scrolling smooth on the original system. Of course I can use the NTSC versions of games but for example lots of Atari ST software runs only correct in 50Hz. An FGPA emulated system could output the video in the same refresh rate as the original system thus not having this problem. Or even connect it to an old fashioned 15KHz RGB tube monitor that looks better for low res graphics than modern LCD screens (yes, I'm aware of screen renderers that can upscale low res graphics is special ways so it looks much better than simple upscalers). But a Raspberry PI should be able to switch the refresh rate to 50Hz thus solving the above problem. Unfortunately I did not had the time yet to look into that. Robert 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) Given their targets are cart based systems I doubt it matters as much as you think. With the exception of the SMS most of the other wide-spread/successful systems were more popular in Jap/US than in Europe -> there's more games in 60Hz than in 50Hz so it may not be a big issue after all (this is not to say there's no good exclusive 50Hz games, there are but just less of them) Regarding Atari ST and Amiga and actually also most of the 8bits computers the opposite is true as they were more successfully in Europe than anywhere else (and Japan already had the likes of the FM Towns and X68000 anyway). But alas those have very little software on cart (Atari ST/Amiga had none) so they are not exactly the target for the RetroVGS either. The Mist project is probably what you are looking for if you care about home computers and some consoles (they have a few cores already up and running) ... I wonder if in the end RetroVGS would use those .... ahem "ask the developers" to port those. http://harbaum.org/till/mist/index.shtml and for the cores https://code.google.com/p/mist-board/wiki/ListOfFPGAProjects Edited July 21, 2015 by phoenixdownita 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Climber Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 The Neo Geo X already tried that and it's a complete POS. I remain skeptical about the RGVS, but I am interested to see where it goes. I think unless they have exclusives, there isn't much of a point. Collectors will always want original releases and casual gamers will just use flash carts for rare games. So they're going to have to offer something unique, other than new colors of a Jaguar case, to get a big audience. Oh man, we had so much fun trashing that thing over on the NG forums. Honestly though, for what it was it's not :that: bad, just not what was promised... I plan to buy several just to support the endeavor. If it tanks for whatever reason(s), I certainly won't be the one who loses out the most and if the only way I can contribute is through some small financial means, I'm all for it. ("small" being the price of 3 units minimum) Cores, emulation, hardware specs, etc., that's someone else's problem. I'm not on the inside at RVGS so I haven't a clue with what's honestly happening but I'm ecstatic this is in the works. I'm praying it's a major success and helps others do similar things. (speaking of projects of any kind that have been shelved for fear of losing one's ass for various reasons) Looking forward to more info! Great post, I too will be buying (well, one at least, maybe 2 for trading/etc if it tanks) despite my reservations in regard to the retro VGS I still think it'd be nice to see it have carts with end labels. whatever the reason the later cart systems didn't have them (32x / Jaguar / N64 / A'Can), I find it really annoying. I agree, end labels are a requirement!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Don't forget that Pal and Japanese SNES carts, like N64, did not have end labels. Many Famicom games didn't. I actually wrote the game names on my cart ends with a silver sharpie, as well several Atari games which the end labels tend to peel and get lost. Silver sharpie isn't really that permanent as it claims; in fact it wipes off effortlessly with isopropyl alcohol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+madman Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Custom case that in many respects is better than the Jag's: - Housing around the controller ports form fitted - Dust flap - No exposed PCB edge connectors Double bonus: Didn't cost the creator $500,000 Downside: Only available in one color 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austin Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Keep the games in their cases they come with and you won't need end labels. That, and end labels look stupid on Jaguar carts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willard Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 (edited) The idea for RetroVGS carts to have end labels would be for them to not use the original Jaguar cart design. Personally the games that come in cardboard boxes, I don't store in the cardboard boxes. I mind the condition of the packaging. Not to the extent that I store them in acrylic cases or plastic bags or lock them in a bank vault. But still, I like to avoid the unnecessary opportunities for myself or others to accidentally damage them. It would be kind of cool if the RetroVGS came with generic (non-branded) clamshells so that the Jaguar scene could use them. That'd be a decent alternative, as I even store my genesis games in their clamshells despite end labels. Even if the RVGS bombs they might have a product they'll recover their expenses on. But then again, that'd just be another weird case of the RVGS and the Jaguar sharing the same molds . Edited July 22, 2015 by Willard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+madman Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 The idea for RetroVGS carts to have end labels would be for them to not use the original Jaguar cart design. Obviously you aren't following along. The reason they're using the original Jag cart design is because the handles are necessary to make sure the cart is seated properly. What good would a game be with an end label if you couldn't actually play it because there was no handle on it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 You are right that a software emulator is much more flexible. In fact I already have a Raspberry PI lying around that I intend to use as emulation system. But one thing that still annoys me about emulators on a PC is that the screen refresh rate is usually 60Hz (for LCD screens, old fashioned tubes usually can go higher) while the emulated system often runs in 50Hz. This results in jerky scrolling in games while it was scrolling smooth on the original system. Of course I can use the NTSC versions of games but for example lots of Atari ST software runs only correct in 50Hz. An FGPA emulated system could output the video in the same refresh rate as the original system thus not having this problem. Or even connect it to an old fashioned 15KHz RGB tube monitor that looks better for low res graphics than modern LCD screens (yes, I'm aware of screen renderers that can upscale low res graphics is special ways so it looks much better than simple upscalers). But a Raspberry PI should be able to switch the refresh rate to 50Hz thus solving the above problem. Unfortunately I did not had the time yet to look into that. Robert Yeah, I don't think anyone will be buying one of these to play ST games on carts... so that's that argument dead in the water. And pretty much all console games play better at 60hz. Hell, I've even modded my PAL Jaguar for 60Hz because the 50hz games just play slower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+save2600 Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Hell, I've even modded my PAL Jaguar for 60Hz because the 50hz games just play slower. *Cough* Zool 2. Zool 2 *cough* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 *Cough* Zool 2. Zool 2 *cough* I said games. LOL. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 (edited) Obviously you aren't following along. The reason they're using the original Jag cart design is because the handles are necessary to make sure the cart is seated properly. What good would a game be with an end label if you couldn't actually play it because there was no handle on it? Like any other top-loader, just shove it in (if the cart doesn't fit, turn it around), power on, and play. When you are finished playing, turn the power off, firmly grip the cart by both sides, and pull up. No "handles" needed! Unless you have the grip of a newborn, in which case you shouldn't be playing. Carts have small parts in them! I couldn't find a demonstration video for Atari, so here's the slightly more complicated NES: Edited July 22, 2015 by stardust4ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+rdemming Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Yeah, I don't think anyone will be buying one of these to play ST games on carts... so that's that argument dead in the water. Me neither and playing ST games from cart was not what I said. I said that if the emulation cores could be used to run my own rom dumps (or disk images) (e.g. by loading them from SD-card) it would make the device more interesting. I never meant that they should release old games from old system as new RetroVGS carts. So indeed the MIST would be of more interest to me. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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