Keatah Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 To state "it" plainly, I'm happy to play retrogames on Emulation or real classic hardware that brings real atmosphere and ambiance to the session. I'm rarely interested in remakes or new takes on old material, not the way they do it today anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 (edited) I'm thinking a lot more can be done with custom cores. Most of the current games emulate rigidly defined retro systems. Why restrain game development to those standards? Why limit devs to a preexisting core when you can literally make up your own system specs? Perhaps create an NES derivative with a pallet of 112 or 128 colors instead of 56. PPU gets double or quadruple the pallet RAM to remove the need for mirroring. CPU clocks to 7.16 Mhz instead of 1.79, effectively making it as powerful as the TG-16. Add some extra rectangle and ramp sound channels ala VRC6. Give it 16kbytes of CPU RAM instead of 2kbyte. Remove the 8 sprites per scanline limitation. Want to make an NES style bullet hell SHMUP for NES with zero slowdown and zero flicker? Not a problem, and it will still look, sound, and feel like an NES game. Give the VCS 16 kbytes of RAM and 32kbytes addressable ROM space to end petty reliance on bankswitching. Clock it 6x to 7.16Mhz (Turbo Gfx speed). Give the TIA four voices instead of two for polyphonic stereo with better pitch definition, 8 sprites and 8 missiles instead of two, asymmetric playfield support, and you get Atari style games where the graphical and audio and gameplay don't blow chunks compared to NES. Combine different GPU, CPU, and soundchips for endless Mame-like configurations. Build core to suit game. This is the kind of stuff I want to see on RetroVGS. Retro style games like Shovel Knight, Retro City Rampage, Shantae which would literally not run on original hardware due to artificial imitations which can now be eliminated. Edited July 7, 2015 by stardust4ever 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austin Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 I like turtles. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+madman Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Yeah, that makes sense. Have developers build a new, custom core for each and every game they make. This sounds highly productive and is sure to make the RetroVGS look easily accessible by developers. Here come the exclusives! Also, you do realize that people can already make "Atari style" games on a variety of consoles and hardware, right? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 (edited) Yeah, that makes sense. Have developers build a new, custom core for each and every game they make. This sounds highly productive and is sure to make the RetroVGS look easily accessible by developers. Here come the exclusives! Also, you do realize that people can already make "Atari style" games on a variety of consoles and hardware, right? Well, for the homebrew guys who discover that they need just a little more RAM, a few more CPU cycles in order to see their vision, or resort to cutting features, flexible cores might be a godsend. Assuming the preexisting cores are open source and free to modify, tampering with CPU or RAM or such on an existing core is a far cry from designing it from stcratch. It's infinitely configurable so no need to limit yourself to preexisting hardware. Edited July 7, 2015 by stardust4ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoGeoNinja Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 far cry... Fair enough. But can it run Crysis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 But can it run Crysis? Yes! But just like a version of Quake for jag, it won't look like the version of Crysis that you know. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah98 Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 (edited) I think we should be more optimistic. Many collectors like myself would love to have a new cartridge based system to collect for. I hate collecting cds, dvds, and blu ray games, even for older systems. I have a PS4 and an XBOX One, and I don't feel excited about buying games for them. Patches, DLC, updates, ? Instead of focusing on the one game, Noah's Ark 3-D, what about Songbringer, Tiny Night, and Read Only Memories? Where else can we get them on cartridge? And even if they get ported to SNES, so what? The Retro VGS is a unique idea, and I don't see any other company out there trying to do this. What they need is a retro community to support them and not be so jaded. If the company can get at least 25 games on cartridge that can't be bought on cartridge anywhere else, the console will be a success in my eyes. There are many retro consoles with limited libraries/few good games that people still collect for (32x, Odyssey 2, CDi, 7800, 5200, 3DO, Jaguar, etc.). They seem to have found a practical way of bringing this to market. It might launch with a lot of ports and remakes, but with success they can do even more. If the Ouya got cool exclusives, why not this console? Edited July 7, 2015 by Noah98 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bojay1997 Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 (edited) I think we should be more optimistic. Many collectors like myself would love to have a new cartridge based system to collect for. I hate collecting cds, dvds, and blu ray games, even for older systems. I have a PS4 and an XBOX One, and I don't feel excited about buying games for them. Patches, DLC, updates, Instead of focusing on the one game, Noah's Ark 3-D, what about Songbringer, Tiny Night, and Read Only Memories? Where else can we get them on cartridge? And even if they get ported to SNES, so what? The Retro VGS is a unique idea, and I don't see any other company out there trying to do this. What they need is a retro community to support them and not be so jaded. If the company can get at least 25 games on cartridge that can't be bought on cartridge anywhere else, the console will be a success in my eyes. There are many retro consoles with limited libraries/few good games that people still collect for (32x, Odyssey 2, CDi, 7800, 5200, 3DO, etc.). They seem to have found a practical way of bringing this to market. It might launch with a lot of ports and remakes, but with success they can do even more. If the Ouya got cool exclusives, why not this console? My issue with the Retro VGS is that it forces people to buy an unnecessary piece of hardware all in what seems to be an attempt to justify purchasing the Jaguar molds. Why not just set up a publishing company to publish cart versions of indie games on the platforms that the cores will mimic? Why would I need to buy any of the games that have been announced so far when I can already purchase them in physical format from places like Indiebox or in the case of Shovelknight, on disc from any major video game retailer in a couple months? Do I need another copy of Pier Solar or Super Noah's Ark 3D on a non-native platform when I can already buy it on cartridge for the original platform it was developed for? I am a gamer and a collector and I prefer physical media to digital. Having said that, I don't believe in putting something on physical proprietary media, especially when a piece of custom hardware is required to play it, just for the sake of releasing it on a cartridge, absent some other artistic or otherwise compelling reason. Edited July 7, 2015 by bojay1997 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah98 Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 My issue with the Retro VGS is that it forces people to buy an unnecessary piece of hardware all in what seems to be an attempt to justify purchasing the Jaguar molds. Why not just set up a publishing company to publish cart versions of indie games on the platforms that the cores will mimic? Why would I need to buy any of the games that have been announced so far when I can already purchase them in physical format from places like Indiebox or in the case of Shovelknight, on disc from any major video game retailer in a couple months? Do I need another copy of Pier Solar or Super Noah's Ark 3D on a non-native platform when I can already buy it on cartridge for the original platform it was developed for? I am a gamer and a collector and I prefer physical media to digital. Having said that, I don't believe in putting something on physical proprietary media, especially when a piece of custom hardware is required to play it, just for the sake of releasing it on a cartridge, absent some other artistic or otherwise compelling reason. I think that's fair. I'm just hoping that eventually some of the higher profile indie games that can't be bought on cartridge now will be ported over. I think the launch titles will probably be mostly ports that can be bought elsewhere. Since I don't own a Jaguar yet, I'm more interested in the hardware. Superficially, I just like the way it looks. I totally get why some people just aren't into it though. I just like to stay "cup half full" and support new retro gaming endeavors! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 My issue with the Retro VGS is that it forces people to buy an unnecessary piece of hardware all in what seems to be an attempt to justify purchasing the Jaguar molds. There does seem to be an inordinate amount of talk surrounding the molds and this system. Why not just set up a publishing company to publish cart versions of indie games on the platforms that the cores will mimic? Why not indeed. Cost is a factor, the market is too small. Why would I need to buy any of the games that have been announced so far when I can already purchase them in physical format from places like Indiebox or in the case of Shovelknight, on disc from any major video game retailer in a couple months? Don't know.. Do I need another copy of Pier Solar or Super Noah's Ark 3D on a non-native platform when I can already buy it on cartridge for the original platform it was developed for? Probably not. But not everyone want to buy junk original consoles off ebay. I am a gamer and a collector and I prefer physical media to digital. Having said that, I don't believe in putting something on physical proprietary media, especially when a piece of custom hardware is required to play it, just for the sake of releasing it on a cartridge, absent some other artistic or otherwise compelling reason. Every cartridge-based system is unique and proprietary. None are interchangeable except for cloned systems, and those don't really count. The artistic element is the shape of a collection. It is these many proprietary systems which create a varied collection in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+madman Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 If the Ouya got cool exclusives, why not this console? Runs Android. Widely available development tools/environments. No expensive up front cart costs. Easy to publish your game. No need to know what an FPGA core is or have to write your own. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 (edited) Fair enough. But can it run Crysis? Yes! But just like a version of Quake for jag, it won't look like the version of Crysis that you know. Anything is possible. Lest people forget, you can play Halo on a 2600. Edited July 7, 2015 by stardust4ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 I hope somebody builds a flashcart with all tne cores for popular systems, but instead of playing ROMs it's got cart slots on top for each retro console. Converts the RetroVGS into a Retron5 that doesn't suck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+remowilliams Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 There's reasons nobody has made an FPGA based multi system, and one of the big ones is because its very, very hard work (with only a quite small pool of people having the requisite knowledge) to make highly accurate cores of existing systems. Hyperkin knew this, which is why they just stole emulators... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 There's reasons nobody has made an FPGA based multi system, and one of the big ones is because its very, very hard work (with only a quite small pool of people having the requisite knowledge) to make highly accurate cores of existing systems. If they made it Android based a whole world of problems would just go away. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cimerians Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 I finally looked into this thing and read some of the threads and its pretty cool but I don't expect to buy one. I might change my mind, but so far I need to see what games will be made for it and how much they will cost. I'd also rather give my money to a homebrew guy for an actual Atari 2600 game that I can play on a real Atari 2600. To me, this is basically a console that plays indie games on a cartridge. I don't necessarily want to buy cartridges again since I don't have the space and I don't plan on paying 20 bucks for these games (or more) even if they do come with a box and manual. Pier Solar for example was going for a couple of bucks on PC about a month ago. I know that the selling point for this system is that the games will never quit working and they will be preserved for all time but still....it's not really something I can justify right away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willard Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) I think we should be more optimistic. Many collectors like myself would love to have a new cartridge based system to collect for. I hate collecting cds, dvds, and blu ray games, even for older systems. I have a PS4 and an XBOX One, and I don't feel excited about buying games for them. Patches, DLC, updates, Instead of focusing on the one game, Noah's Ark 3-D, what about Songbringer, Tiny Night, and Read Only Memories? Where else can we get them on cartridge? And even if they get ported to SNES, so what? One element that adds to the collectability of real retro gaming systems (imo) is that they are a relic of their time. They were real efforts to compete against rival platforms and have historical significance. They were not designed to attract compulsive collectors and speculators. It's understandable there are "collectors" this will appeal to, but I think it's also understandable that many will not see an underpowered modern platform being advertised as a "new retro gaming system" as attractive. Personally I think that seeing new games on older platforms is always nice, and a little more than a "so what," because I'd prefer to get them on the older platform I think that's fair. I'm just hoping that eventually some of the higher profile indie games that can't be bought on cartridge now will be ported over. I think the launch titles will probably be mostly ports that can be bought elsewhere. I would be interested to see some good original games released for it. I'm not against someone producing a system and investing their own resources to bring some fun new games out in a unique way. Releasing a bunch of ports to introduce the system does not give a good first impression imo though, and won't give them a good feel for the people who may have been interested had they had some games that demonstrate the potential of their concept right away though. No expensive up front cart costs. Easy to publish your game. But there's no "expectation" of paying $50+ for $5 worth of components for an android game. There's perceived value in the game just being on a cartridge. I'm not going to purport to know what kind of dev tools or publishing arrangements they have for the RVGS but I imagine they'll facilitate the publishing so you're not sitting on a bunch of components, and that they will have some basic dev tools that will performs functions sufficient for relatively simple games. I haven't read up on that so any information would be interesting. Edited July 8, 2015 by Willard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaysWithWolves Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) I guess the benefit of FPGA cores is that developers familiar with a certain platform don't have to relearn a whole new system. I guess. That, and the obvious ports or newer games that use old code. I believe one of the goals is simply to have a new cart-based system in modern times. It's not much fun to collect games any more, for any who have that video-game-collector genes. I think a system that could run Jaguar games out-of-the-box (and possibly even better?) would have been nice. But, I'm not the dev; just a dreamer. Exclusive titles would be nice, but it seems risky to develop such at this point. I suppose a developer could have a "Plan B" to release it on another system in case RVGS didn't pan out. Edited July 8, 2015 by PlaysWithWolves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 I believe one of the goals is simply to have a new cart-based system in modern times. It's not much fun to collect games any more, for any who have that video-game-collector genes. Why is that happening? I see long-time collectors downsizing and even myself considering going back to the exact basic hardware I had as a kid in the 80's - disposing of all the ebay acquisitions won after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaysWithWolves Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Why is that happening? I see long-time collectors downsizing and even myself considering going back to the exact basic hardware I had as a kid in the 80's - disposing of all the ebay acquisitions won after. Because you may be getting older (like me) and just wanting to simplify life? I worded that phrase you quoted wrongly. I meant that collecting modern games can't be much fun (beyond playing) for younger ones with aspirations of video game collecting. Granted I was thinking in terms of almost everything being downloaded now, so maybe they get that desire to collect DVD games (like XBox360)? Of course, he has to get a solid system out there that people want to collect -- and a decent number of quality games. I wonder if people would feel more comfortable with the idea if he was selling the system outright and leave Kickstarter for all the fancy cases? Well that, and knowing what hardware/cores were coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+madman Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 I think a system that could run Jaguar games out-of-the-box (and possibly even better?) would have been nice Exclusive titles would be nice, but it seems risky to develop such at this point. So your plan would be to release a brand new system that only plays ports of old games and Jaguar carts? Surely they would exceed their Kickstarter goal within 24 hours with that business plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaysWithWolves Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 So your plan would be to release a brand new system that only plays ports of old games and Jaguar carts? Surely they would exceed their Kickstarter goal within 24 hours with that business plan. It was a nostalgic nod to the use of the Jaguar mold and mean there'd be a list of games it would work with out-of-the-box. Dunno where you got the "only plays ports of old games" part. No worries that your money would be ill spent by me; I'm not in charge of RVGS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Black Falcon Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 (edited) 40 minute interview (by a guy on Youtube) with Mike Kennedy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RL-YQbf3NTE I know it's far too expensive, but it's too bad masked roms aren't an option anymore; if you're looking for durability in game preservation, there's few better options. 100-year flash or hard drives can't compare. Even 100-year flash probably isn't going to last as long as a masked ROM will, and hard drives are much less durable than that (if they get used, that is). There's nothing really that can be done about this, though, other than use the best thing you've got... too bad. Beyond that, a few more thoughts: Yeah, it's a good interview well worth watching for anyone interested in the system. I definitely agree that price is going to be a big factor here, I hope he can keep it down. He says that he's hoping for a lot of people to back the kickstarter, tens of thousands at the 'buying one' level, so that he can go to publishers and have a better case for getting them to support the console; he mentions the issue that you need games to get buyers, but buyers to get developers. The system has a few retro-system homebrew publishers, but no other announced ones so far... and he's probably right that getting bigger names will require sales. I have no idea if what he's hoping for will happen or not, kickstarter can be hard to predict. I would be surprised if the system gets much at all in the way of "AAA exclusives" (major titles from big publishers in popular franchises exclusive to the system), though. I know they want them, and it'd be great if it happens, but with the way publishers are, it seems unlikely. Also, this thing will really rely on good FPGA cores being made for more systems. That's apparently difficult, but it'll have to happen. And last, his dislike for digital-download games is very apparent in the interview; it comes across more strongly in a video than it would in text, I think. I imagine some people would call that attitude dated, but I like both sides here... physical games for their durability and not being killable when a developer wants to shut the game down, digital ones for making it possible for small teams to distribute and sell games and for making games cheaper, particularly on PC, if you wait for sales. Overall physical there probably has the edge, because the transience of downloadable games is a HUGE concern. However, on the other hand, no online connection at all has drawbacks; as a longtime PC gamer I also do like things like online play and online leaderboards, even if I play online multiplayer games less than I used to (in favor of often older console games instead...). Edited July 10, 2015 by A Black Falcon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+5-11under Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 If I'm understanding this correctly, then this (from the RetroVGS FAQ) disappoints me: The (soon-to-be-patented) RETRO VGS cartridge interface... I think I'll send them an e-mail to gain clarification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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