FPGA Based Videogame System

[roots.genoa]

9 hours ago, Reaperman said:

Or is it going to be all nice and calm like the duo preorder?, which is still open(!)

The N64 may be more popular than the PC Engine, at least in the US, but the Analogue 3D doesn't offer openFPGA like the Duo, so that will make it far less desirable than the Pocket. I won't be surprised if the pre-orders stay open for a while...

[Megadragon15]

25 minutes ago, roots.genoa said:

The N64 may be more popular than the PC Engine, at least in the US, but the Analogue 3D doesn't offer openFPGA like the Duo, so that will make it far less desirable than the Pocket. I won't be surprised if the pre-orders stay open for a while...

Duo doesn't support openFPGA. Read the specifications at https://www.analogue.co/duo and you will see that it says it uses Analogue OS as well as a note that says it does not support openFPGA.

[roots.genoa]

2 hours ago, Megadragon15 said:

Duo doesn't support openFPGA. Read the specifications at https://www.analogue.co/duo and you will see that it says it uses Analogue OS as well as a note that says it does not support openFPGA.

To be fair I was trying to find a better way to formulate it but that's what I meant by "like the Duo". Neither the Duo or the 3D will have openFPGA. Hence the Duo being still available.

Edited October 17, 2023 by roots.genoa

[Tanooki]

It could also be the way they handled the Duo being another thing.  The route that thing has taken from a similar announcement a bit too long ago now probably poisoned the well of buyers.  When you throw in the other issue that it has no openFPGA to play core games with, and pit that against the god awful pricing on NEC cards for games that is going to minimize interest further.  With collectors it may have a rabid niche, but it's a niche within one.  This one device, it has the advantage of being NINTENDO.  That alone is enough to be fair.

 

While the US hardware barely missed the 300 mark (over it now with found protos and projects) and adding in the Japanese games there's a number more, adding about 30% more titles. https://nintendo.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Japan_exclusive_games_(Nintendo_64)  There is a good bit of junk that isn't playable or much fun if you think about quirky games to mahjong and shogi titles.  But then you have Sin & Punishment, Bangaioh, Last Legion UX, Rakuga Kids, some japanese wrestling titles, some puyo, and even animal forest and wonder project j2 so there are choices.  N64 for many was their first system, it was a tank and often ended up in daycare and after school program centers where they'd get used and abused and the college types with their drunk multiplayer time with racing, sports, goldeneye, etc.

[NE146]

Yeah I like Analogue, but I'm not all that excited about N64. I was an early adopter buying the system 1st day of launch, purchased games for it regularly, and really did enjoy it in its time. But as it is now, I've come to realize it's not exactly a library I find myself wanting to go back and play very often. Others may vary of course.

Edited October 17, 2023 by NE146

[M-S]

 I have been thinking, the only reason why Analogue is still popular nowadays is because the alternatives are mostly DIY projects and some stores sell them pre-built in very limited quantities, the micro computer community doesn't seem to mind it, most computers already have a modern version that either uses new chips or FPGA, like the SM-MSX, but most require some setting up or building before playing. This is why I think they'll never enter the computer market.

With Atari and Neo Geo I think they would only do it if they managed to make it an official product, since 8BitDo got the license to do the CD controller from SNK, but Atari is making a really cheap emulated console and selling it for 129$, if you considered FPGA to be triple the price of emulation as an example it wouldn't be possible for that to be made and sold.

 And with NES I think the hardware is so simple that soon enough there could be clones that are even cheaper than the initial price of the AVS.

 There's this 25$ board which has a built in HDMI and two Dualshock controller ports, it is built specifically for gaming and can run a core called NESTang which outputs 720p, the biggest limitation is that apparently it doesn't have enough pins for a cartridge port, so it doesn't support all games and still has bugs, but since it has the exact same amount of pins as a NES PPU I imagine it could be used as a replacement and a simple HDMI mod kit with some changes to the core, I think someone could mass produce a console using a NES clone CPU or a second FPGA it if it happened. This concept has already been applied to the V9958 VDP that is used in many computers.

13 minutes ago, NE146 said:

Yeah I like Analogue, but I'm not all that excited about N64. I was an early adopter buying the system 1st day of launch, purchased games for it regularly, and really did enjoy it in its time. But as it is now, I've come to realize it's not exactly a library I find myself wanting to go back and play very often. Others may vary of course.

 All the Rare games were ported to the Xbox systems already, a lot of Nintendo games were ported to the DS and 3DS and Nightdive has been remastering games like crazy recently, and whenever I want to play Cruis'n USA I go to the mall to play the Arcade version, there's a very small library that still needs the real console.

[SegaSnatcher]

23 hours ago, Kaide said:

 

As RobDangerous points out, the N64 Mister core is coming along surprisingly well. The DE10-Nano uses the same FPGA that Analogue has been using for a while now. The Pocket is a dual FPGA setup where the second FPGA is used for video output, which helps share the load without going for a much more expensive monolithic FPGA. In terms of hardware complexity, the differences between the N64 and PS1 don’t necessarily translate into more or less space on an FPGA. It’s a good rule of thumb, but is probably more useful when comparing between console generations. Newer processes meant higher transistor density, which means more complex circuits can be designed in the same area of silicon. I don’t know enough to really say much about the PS1 vs N64 in terms of transistor count + density across all the chips that you need to reimplement (it’s not just the CPU or GPU). 

 

I wouldn’t be surprised if this is a console version of the Pocket in terms of hardware. Maybe a beefier secondary FPGA for the 4K output and CRT simulation. So the cost really depends a lot on that secondary FPGA and how similar it is to the Pocket setup. 

 

It's not the same FPGA.  They are both Cyclone V, but DE-10 Nano's FPGA has over 2X the LE and has an ARM core.   Noir, Super NT, Mega SG and Pocket's main FPGA uses a 49K LE part. 

It will be interesting to find out what FPGA is used in the 3D.  

[SegaSnatcher]

22 hours ago, Kaide said:

Interesting. I wonder what they are doing differently for 4K on the Cyclone V then.

We don't know if its even using a Cyclone V this time around and if it did it definitely wouldn't be the part they have been using over these past few years on other products.  Could be a totally different FPGA brand this time around. 

[Atariboy]

6 hours ago, Tanooki said:

When you throw in the other issue that it has no openFPGA to play core games with, and pit that against the god awful pricing on NEC cards for games that is going to minimize interest further.  With collectors it may have a rabid niche, but it's a niche within one. 

The traditional Analogue jailbreak isn't the same thing as openFPGA. Only the Pocket has had openFPGA yet every Analogue FPGA based console to date has allowed the playing of rom images from the system's own SD slot (with a few limitations here and there like with Sega's SVP chip or Nintendo's Super FX that weren't replicated onboard the system's FPGA, forcing the use of original cartridges for such games or high end multicarts).

 

The expectation is that the Duo will receive a jailbreak version of its firmware within days of the launch, opening up the ability to play Hucard images off SD card (and hopefully CD bin/cue's). Analogue's official line is that this product (and their upcoming N64) don't support the playing of rom images, but that's been standard practice for the past several Analogue systems. Hence the unofficial nature of the jailbreak firmware and the author going by a pseudonym to further distant it from being official and condoned by Analogue.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Atariboy

[roots.genoa]

It's clear to me that the versatility of the Pocket made people look at Analogue differently but, before all, they make niche systems that cater to collectors of the corresponding vintage systems. However, people tend to act now like every Analogue system should be unmissable, which would mean the Duo is some kind of failure for instance. I don't think it is.

 

Personally, I didn't buy an Nt or a Super Nt because I don't own any NES or SNES games. And while I really "need" the Duo to get rid of my Super CD-ROM² (I own 50+ PCE games), I can appreciate the interest of the 3D but I have very few N64 carts so it's not that interesting to me (also I don't care for 4K). I'd clearly prefer a Saturn clone but that's OK, I'm actually pretty happy I don't have to buy every Analogue system, and my bank account probably appreciates it as well. 😅

[Ricdeau]

22 minutes ago, roots.genoa said:

It's clear to me that the versatility of the Pocket made people look at Analogue differently but, before all, they make niche systems that cater to collectors of the corresponding vintage systems. However, people tend to act now like every Analogue system should be unmissable, which would mean the Duo is some kind of failure for instance. I don't think it is.

 

Personally, I didn't buy an Nt or a Super Nt because I don't own any NES or SNES games. And while I really "need" the Duo to get rid of my Super CD-ROM² (I own 50+ PCE games), I can appreciate the interest of the 3D but I have very few N64 carts so it's not that interesting to me (also I don't care for 4K). I'd clearly prefer a Saturn clone but that's OK, I'm actually pretty happy I don't have to buy every Analogue system, and my bank account probably appreciates it as well. 😅

I tend to agree with your take. It's okay for a system to not appeal to everyone. Analogue is a company making products aimed at a niche market. While every company wants their product to be runaway successes sometimes you make a product knowing it won't be as successful, but you position your bill of materials and production accordingly to address the lack of more mass appeal. It's okay for the Duo to have a narrower appeal so long as they have planned for that. I think it's great for there to be an option for PCE/TG16 which has been very underserved compared to Nintendo and Sega systems. I'm just now getting to experience PCE/TG16 largely for the first time via MiSTer and the Pocket, but I've recently started building a humble little physical collection because the Duo got me excited for that system.

 

My major hope is that Analogue has learned from the pre-order issues of the past. It's hard to say if demand for the Duo was just so low or if they are attacking the pre-order issue in a better way. When they took orders for the black/white Pockets again after that first run that sold out almost instantly it was much better on additional rounds. No clue if the colored Pockets sold out super fast or not.  

 

While I'm interested and will likely get the Analogue 3D. I personally wish it was a PS1 or Saturn system because I have larger collections and affection for those two systems over the N64. Also, I don't if it's just me, but 3D is where I don't necessarily care about the accuracy as much while I do care about accuracy for 2D. I tend to want older 3D games to run better, look better, and have enhanced rendering options like addressing texture warping on the PS1. Early 3D can be hard to love at times.

[roots.genoa]

9 hours ago, Ricdeau said:

No clue if the colored Pockets sold out super fast or not.

They did, in a few minutes depending on the color... 😔 The problem was that the limit of 2 units per customer applied for each model, and since Pockets are usually sold for $400 on eBay, it has become an easy way to make money unfortunately. Also, like I said earlier, a few people now "collect" Pocket models, some of them have ten of them. 🤷‍♂️

[RobDangerous]

20 hours ago, Ricdeau said:

While I'm interested and will likely get the Analogue 3D. I personally wish it was a PS1 or Saturn system because I have larger collections and affection for those two systems over the N64. Also, I don't if it's just me, but 3D is where I don't necessarily care about the accuracy as much while I do care about accuracy for 2D. I tend to want older 3D games to run better, look better, and have enhanced rendering options like addressing texture warping on the PS1. Early 3D can be hard to love at times.

I used to be like that. But nowadays I appreciate the original graphics. For one because when things are for example rendered in a higher resolution often times things don't fit together that well anymore - like sprites and overlays in a 3D game. And more importantly because that way I can see and appreciate what the developers really did. Like whether or not they put work into minimizing that texture warping. Or how they used the three point texture filtering or the anti-aliasing on the N64. And I'm much more concerned with rendering accuracy for those consoles because it's actually relatively complicated and can be off in subtle ways. I don't love early 3D - but I find it fascinating.

[Bill Loguidice]

20 hours ago, Ricdeau said:

While I'm interested and will likely get the Analogue 3D. I personally wish it was a PS1 or Saturn system because I have larger collections and affection for those two systems over the N64. Also, I don't if it's just me, but 3D is where I don't necessarily care about the accuracy as much while I do care about accuracy for 2D. I tend to want older 3D games to run better, look better, and have enhanced rendering options like addressing texture warping on the PS1. Early 3D can be hard to love at times.

I'd like PS1 and Saturn as well, but I'm in no rush. Even though I'll likely get anything that Analogue continues to put out (outside of special editions like the differently-cased handhelds), what I'm really waiting on is delivery of my Polymega and all of the modules and accessories. Sure, it's not as accurate as the Analogue stuff, but it's far more versatile and can do things in software that a pure FPGA system generally can't. Also, while it's not really streamlined outside of most of the CD-based platforms it supports, it's much easier to have the one system plugged in that plays multiple things. As great as Analogue is, I still need to plug in each and every individual system. I'd frankly prefer them to do a console that's as versatile as the handheld (still waiting on the other modules for that, of course, as well).

[Ricdeau]

35 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

I'd like PS1 and Saturn as well, but I'm in no rush. Even though I'll likely get anything that Analogue continues to put out (outside of special editions like the differently-cased handhelds), what I'm really waiting on is delivery of my Polymega and all of the modules and accessories. Sure, it's not as accurate as the Analogue stuff, but it's far more versatile and can do things in software that a pure FPGA system generally can't. Also, while it's not really streamlined outside of most of the CD-based platforms it supports, it's much easier to have the one system plugged in that plays multiple things. As great as Analogue is, I still need to plug in each and every individual system. I'd frankly prefer them to do a console that's as versatile as the handheld (still waiting on the other modules for that, of course, as well).

I had a Polymega preordered for some time, and then delay after delay after delay with no real news led me to cancel. Once it finally released I was glad to see it actually worked pretty well for those that got them, but I just ran out of patience with that company. Analogue, while not immune to their own issues, at least has followed through for the most part. What I do really like of the Polymega is the front-end GUI.

[nonosto]

Hello @kevtris I hope you will see this message, I would like give some of idea (maybe already implemented in your prototype) for made the best as possible Analogue 3D.

 

- widescreen 16/9 for HDMI output: exist lot of patch for widescrenn PAL/NTSC game for PC emulator, and could be run with Analogue 3D.

N64 Widescreen Codes/Patches for project 64

- compatibility with arcade card for game like Killer instinct 1 & 2

- Maybe (I am not sure it's possible) use the graphism filter from Super Mario 3D All-Stars.

 

Sorry to boring you and Thanks for your work

[cacophony]

On 10/19/2023 at 6:53 AM, nonosto said:

Hello @kevtris I hope you will see this message, I would like give some of idea (maybe already implemented in your prototype) for made the best as possible Analogue 3D.

 

- widescreen 16/9 for HDMI output: exist lot of patch for widescrenn PAL/NTSC game for PC emulator, and could be run with Analogue 3D.

N64 Widescreen Codes/Patches for project 64

- compatibility with arcade card for game like Killer instinct 1 & 2

- Maybe (I am not sure it's possible) use the graphism filter from Super Mario 3D All-Stars.

 

Sorry to boring you and Thanks for your work

 

From what I've read on discord, it sounds like Analogue's N64 is being done by the guy behind this: https://www.ultrafp64.com/

who has a github here: https://github.com/Mazamars312

 

[M-S]

Anything other than the announcement and the interview with the CEO is only speculation, Analogue doesn't let any information about their consoles leak, you can also see how Kevtris is always very active in forums, but when he's working on something he stops interacting.

[cacophony]

5 hours ago, M-S said:

Anything other than the announcement and the interview with the CEO is only speculation, Analogue doesn't let any information about their consoles leak, you can also see how Kevtris is always very active in forums, but when he's working on something he stops interacting.

Not really, unless you think the guy behind the Ultra FP64 is lying. That would make zero sense given that he was clearly intending to productize or sell his work for the past few years.

 

Also, Kevtris usually pops his head up to join discussions after announcements for products where he was the primary contributor.

Edited October 24, 2023 by cacophony

[M-S]

But there's no way to be sure it is him the one that is developing the console, although it's possible.

[Atariboy]

1 hour ago, M-S said:

But there's no way to be sure it is him the one that is developing the console, although it's possible.

Mazamars312 along with other big names in the openFPGA scene have essentially confirmed it on Discord.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Atariboy

[Atariboy]

On 9/6/2023 at 1:15 AM, Atariboy said:

Since I've been complaining about Analogue support and being vocal about my issue here since I thought that I was getting the old brush off, it's only fair to pass along that I was contacted tonight with apologies about them being super busy and that their engineers are looking into it.

 

If anything of interest comes of this (one of the most respected OpenFPGA programmers in the Pocket scene isn't convinced it's even a real hardware fault and he knows a heck of a lot more about this than I do), I'll be sure to pass it along for anyone that may be curious about the strange issues that have been happening on my system.

Just for the record, Analogue finally did fully repair my system free of charge.

 

I've had the repaired unit back for a couple of weeks and have spent 5 or 6 hours with it with no major issues to report. Just known problems with particular cores and one strange quirk with the Game Gear core (It didn't want to play some roms which made me think that I had some bad ones or needed to alter their file extensions so that the core knew what bankswitching scheme was in use, yet they all loaded fine the next evening).

 

I believe it received an entire replacement motherboard since all my settings were reset when I received it (while there's a factory reset option in the OS that returns the system to all the default settings, I see no reason why Analogue's repair person would've done it during the repair process).

[bird333]

Can you guys recommend a wireless controller for a NES?  Do they make a bluetooth controller that includes the bluetooth dongle?  I haven't found one.

[M-S]

Why ask for it on the FPGA thread though? Anyways, the ones from 8BitDo and Retro-Bit are good options, just be careful to choose the correct dongle, 2.4GHz is also faster than Bluetooth, and if you are feeling like spending more, I heard good things from the ones from RetroUSB, that one is the closest to zero lag.

Anyways, here's a new video on the FunnyPlaying GBC: 

Compatibility seems to not be perfect yet for original GB games and cheap flash carts, but it seems like they are targeting a 69U$ price tag, which is insanely cheap. You could buy this, a GBA clone, the official Everdrive GB and a modded GBP and it would still be cheaper than the Analogue Pocket.

[impetus_maximus]

2 hours ago, bird333 said:

Can you guys recommend a wireless controller for a NES?  Do they make a bluetooth controller that includes the bluetooth dongle?  I haven't found one.

does it have to be bluetooth? it's my understanding that bluetooth has overhead and variable delays in controllers.

 

[edit]M-S beat me to it. i like this one from retroUSB

https://www.retrousb.com/product_info.php?cPath=36&products_id=154

 

it's radio 'line of sight' though. if a table is between you and the receiver it probably won't work.

it's a clicky type controller (including the D-Pad) so it takes a bit of getting use to the feel. great for timing jumps/movement though!

my only gripe with it is the buttons are kinda sharp and uncomfortable if you are holding one down.

no lag that i can perceive though & great battery life.

 

welcome to the forums BTW!