Mclaneinc Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 (edited) LOL...Steve, that's dangerously close to Emkays train of thought....A trip to the GP will cure this... Seriously, as I always say, I love Emkays POV, he comes in at his own angle and says what he thinks..There's nothing wrong with that as long as you keep it civil as he does (can't remember him being crass but if he was I hope its long forgotten now) Edited August 31, 2018 by Mclaneinc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snicklin Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 I was sitting there waiting for my train, couldn't help that one.... On a completely different note, back to topic, I look at a game like this and think that they've done really well but it is a C64 style of game, better suited to its abilities. I don't think that the Atari could pull it off. I do believe in the Atari sticking to its strengths. There's no harm in trying to uncover new ways of doing things, and if someone can find a way then great, but I doubt that anyone could do something like this on the Atari without major restrictions. The Atari can do some stuff great (noticeably high computational styles of games) and the C64 is better for lower colour restrictions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 (edited) I work on the basis that sometimes you have to go where the game is and not always expect / hope it will come to you... I love my Atari, its my true first genuine computer love (in a not pervy way), the ZX80 / 81 and Vic 20's were really nice but the Atari just made me feel at home and in the gaming world there and then in a way that sticks till now but until some legend brings out Mario Odyssey on it I have to hit the Switch and play it on that, I'm still ga ga for the Atari though. Could the Atari do a nice version of SAM, possibly but it won't BE SAM, I need a C64 for that. The Atari does not have anything to prove as neither do the devs, they have made the machine do things we never thought possible BUT its the machine we love to bits and its an ATARI, I don't want it made in to a C64. But again I don't think it could do SAM that would be as SAM is on the C64......Other new and brilliant games from our wonderful devs, YES!! Edited August 31, 2018 by Mclaneinc 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Could the Atari do a nice version of SAM, possibly but it won't BE SAM, I need a C64 for that. ... But again I don't think it could do SAM that would be as SAM is on the C64......Other new and brilliant games from our wonderful devs, YES!! My take on this is something like - take crownland as base, add as much software sprites possible and maybe add 8dir scroll. Rest is "just" gameplay and that's what makes Sam's Journey a good game. Not the gfx. Maybe it will run at 25fps, it won't have as much colors as c64 at once on screen, but I bet you it can be even more fun than Sam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 (edited) My take on this is something like - take crownland as base, add as much software sprites possible and maybe add 8dir scroll. Rest is "just" gameplay and that's what makes Sam's Journey a good game. Not the gfx. Maybe it will run at 25fps, it won't have as much colors as c64 at once on screen, but I bet you it can be even more fun than Sam. I take where you are coming from but in terms of if the Atari can do SAM then most would agree that "sam as seen on the C64" isn't do-able BUT a game like Sam could be done to a very high degree... I'd prefer people to not try and copy a game based on "its on the C64" but a game in its own right, a game that isn't sam but uses what Sam does as inspiration to do something as good for the Atari using the Atari.. That's why I said that questions like this as per the thread should be answered exactly as asked because some people want to see what they have seen elsewhere just like they have seen which isn't always possible but its not a denigration of the Atari just because it does not look like a C64. If people want Sam them buy the digital copy and play via the emulator or play on a real machine.... I'd prefer the coders to use the Atari for something THEY want to write and can make happen, if a dev makes a 'clone' of that game they stand the chance of getting a well done for trying but the fair chance of a run of comments say "well its nothing like the C64 one" etc... Just do your own thing ladies and gents.. (Btw Pop, I'm sure a super talented guy like you could do a really super version but hell, do what you want to do : ) ) Edited August 31, 2018 by Mclaneinc 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 (edited) Sam's could be done on the Atari but not using crownland, If you look at it most of it will process quickly on the Atari, so long a gameplay is kept (and it can be) the graphics can be worked up repeatedly until cycles are exhausted even on NTSC machines. It took them a long time with lots of work to get this on Commie, It will take at least as long to do it on the Atari using the best in the scene to get it done. This would mean collaboration of some of our best or better games coders, graphists, and muscician/effects crews to get it done right. Design of the game would require pushing Atari's strength and muscle to leave time for their tricks, Done right some spots might be better other sections might dial back a little... but the balance could be even better. Some real commitment would be needed to get it done. Does our community still have the ability to work together across the board to get it done? We might, and some of the guys/girls that have left might even come back to help just for bragging rights. We've seen some really strong and even better version of many ports and original work on the good ole Atari in the past 4 or so years give or take some more. Making some of the best yet on this platform, and surprising everybody at that. Who has the skill, the fortitude, the chops to band together and get it done? Perhaps it will be a number of people working together to make someones journey and make it happen slightly better. Perhaps a video playing at the end if you complete the journey well? Would have to be coded for both NTSC and Pal from the ground up to do it right. It would definitely make for some news and notoriety for all involved. How about a list of folks still living who could pull it off.... you know a dream team of folks who could be excited into doing some heavy lifting, the satisfaction would be incredible for them. Edited August 31, 2018 by _The Doctor__ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 You mean like the Live AId of Atari gaming programming.... Its a great idea, a group of BIG group of these guys (and gals) exchanging coding techniques and improving on them in a mass joint collaboration... Anything is possible if the mind is put to it..... Could you break these guys off their projects though Or would it be too many cooks and all that... Maybe not a Live Aid thing, more an A-Team project! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 I'd prefer the coders to use the Atari for something THEY want to write and can make happen, if a dev makes a 'clone' of that game they stand the chance of getting a well done for trying but the fair chance of a run of comments say "well its nothing like the C64 one" etc... Just do your own thing ladies and gents.. (Btw Pop, I'm sure a super talented guy like you could do a really super version but hell, do what you want to do : ) ) Agreed, I'm all for original games and not clones. I loved Manic Miner, Amaurote, Skool Daze and other recent Atari ports of old 8bit games. On the other hand I would be amazed with something like new horizontal shooter in style of R-Type (arcade version ). Even better would be nice Eye of the Beholder type rpg using full Atari palette.... I do plan to make my own "version of Turrican", but the only thing in common with Turrican will be a scrolling screen and lots of action. It'll probably be done in 4-5 shades of single color like gameboy and using that double scanline mode that Emkay loves so much (for good reasons). Somehow I find coding new game easier and more rewarding than trying to figure out how to squeeze something from other 8bits. Back to topic - imho a version of Sam's journey could be done. Char mode with 5th color, some dli changes to add detail to vertical differences in level, number of sprites limited with cpu time and available PMs for couple of more colorfull sprites (like player). Rest is same code as on C64. And don't forget music ! Someone would have to compose bunch of tunes that sound good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 LOL...Steve, that's dangerously close to Emkays train of thought....A trip to the GP will cure this... Seriously, as I always say, I love Emkays POV, he comes in at his own angle and says what he thinks..There's nothing wrong with that as long as you keep it civil as he does (can't remember him being crass but if he was I hope its long forgotten now) You know the problem ? Particular this thread is pointing to "someone who really should know things, is asking for the things" . My POKEY test tunes (and some of the good results) show possibilities and people ask for the cause to do things on and on. OK. If one time a message would be enough, the whole world knows it. But the real thing is: Every day a person wakes up that doesn't know things , if you understand. This thread started by a person who is interested in old computers. So what to think, if such is asking the starting question of this thread. So on the same position you get asked for several questions... -Why don't you explain... -Why do you explain on and on ... -why bother at all... -why not trying ... ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwilove Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Talking about clones - isn't Turrican a simpler version of Metroid? For a programmer starting out - into the field of games programming - making a clone seems to be the usual thing to do - from what I've noticed. And that original games programming seems to be more for the intermediate/advanced programmer? There is nothing wrong with taking a standard game format - and then adding your own touches to it, so that it becomes your own. The C-64 can do prettier games - as can be seen in - a port of the Legend of Zelda SNES graphics into a demo - the Last Ninja games. That is, when stretched - otherwise it's usual look is with dull colours present. A really nice platform game has been missing in action - for some time. Straight ports do not look all that good to me - when it's identical to the one on it's original hardware - but maybe they were right with that approach - as Atarising it may not look better? I think a platform like game has to have really good gameplay dynamics (phyics) present - say like in Bounty Bob's jump - otherwise it is 'standard' - and on the dull side? Bristles has a standard kind of jump - but it adds it's own quirky movement dynamics - which adds it's own character. Mr Robot and the Jumpman games didn't do it for me - missing some kind of fun factor. Also their graphics (for me) didn't work - whereas the simple graphics of Miner 2049'er and Bristles worked well for them. We are a critical lot here - I'm especially critical of the graphics because I like to see a reasonable standard of graphics present. And I see games which I think could look a whole lot better - if say animations were present - and the animations need to be of a decent quality. I'm no expert at animating - but most animations are on the simple side - and effective animations generally are that simple in nature. To have no animations present - makes the game look dull. Even some early coin-op games - did have animations that did not work - and those who convert them into home versions - ought to put in better working animations. Anyway - some people do not like their work to be so critically analysed - though this is not intended to be negative as such - and should not be seen that way. I don't think you'll see much in the way of cooperative projects done - because it usually comes down to one person doing all or most of the work present. And it's not easy for people with differing views/etc to get along well... But I do think the load could be taken off the programmer (if they want it that way?) - with someone assisting with the graphics (who likes the challenge of working with pixels), someone who'll take on the task of level design (playtesting too) - who doesn't have to have any programming ability but is a gamer at heart - and someone to tackle the music (and/or audio). And there are those who are not concerned about being credited at all - but just like to see such a project completed (that shows off the Atari hardware) - to show what has always been possible - and why you bought the hardware in the first place. That it always had such potential - but only few have shown that in practice. Harvey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 (edited) To put more salt to the soup The Atari has no platformer that could be named anyhow a platform game, of that generation of platformers Which game has 8 way scrolling and a free movement (by control features) on the protagonist? Schreckenstein. OK. But it misses this "flair" of such a platformer. The most advanced game "Crownland" ... has no vertical scrolling. Spelunker.... I really liked the game back then ... has no action while horizontal scrolling happens. NRV did a good game engine.... a great little game on it's own, but no platformer that tells a story. The thread is more like a wooden bridge above a Vulcan. People put water on it , so it won't burn. Instead of building the bridge with stones Or the question "can I get pregnant without a matrix" Well, the C64 platformers work technically, but they are boring as hell. On the Amiga Turrican 2 brought the right touch, to get into the game. But, on the Atari, it seems impossible at all. Not really, as there is Antic D , but people don't come to the conclusion that you have to use the lower resolution, if you want to do such a platformer . Remember? Even at this low resolution, the screen is only 32 bytes wide, and there is no bit calculation on the moving objects.... but it acts like a platformer game. Edited September 1, 2018 by emkay 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 The engine in the Video shows something more. - The PMg can be adjusted to the scrolling - The engine doesn't use speed optimizations To say in other words... The protagonist won't need the squares around and could get more details, by a Player overlay over the software sprite. Or masking the scrolling squares , using Missiles to overlay the byte of the background graphics. You know, a missile is a "byte" wide , when using full width... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 The Atari has no platformer that could be named anyhow a platform game, of that generation of platformers Which game has 8 way scrolling and a free movement (by control features) on the protagonist? ... Remember? Even at this low resolution, the screen is only 32 bytes wide, and there is no bit calculation on the moving objects.... but it acts like a platformer game. Sounds about right. Besides couple other genres/types of game, that 8-dir, action platformer is what's missing the most imho. Using double scanline charmode with 5th color + pm sounds like max that A8 can do. And it should be enough for dynamic game full of worlds to see and stuff to blow up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 Well, the C64 platformers work technically, but they are boring as hell. On the Amiga Turrican 2 brought the right touch, to get into the game. Ok, I'll bite Are you for real ? To stay on topic - in your opinion Sam's Journey is boring ? Turrican 1+2, Creatures 1+2, Giana, Prince of persia (yes I've included that one too), CJ's Elephant antics, Solomon's Key, First Samurai, Rick Dangerous, Myth, Toki, Ghost'n'Goblins..... List goes on... I agree there are games that are mostly good graphics based like Hawkeye and Flimbo. To say that "C64 platformers are boring as hell" is just wrong on so many levels. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 As Emaky said, he likes to put more salt in the soup... Its almost like he does not want to eat....There's no platformers on the Atari that match the criteria he named and then as quickly there were but just not ones he liked... More salt...less eating... C64 platformers like the ones named as "boring"...WOW...Games that sold and received excellent reviews in general for their play ability and programming yet to him they are boring... Personally I think Emkay has a lot of salt he's acquired and needs to get rid of it to make space for other equally non tasty products Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 To stay on topic - in your opinion Sam's Journey is boring ? Turrican 1+2, Creatures 1+2, Giana, Prince of persia (yes I've included that one too), CJ's Elephant antics, Solomon's Key, First Samurai, Rick Dangerous, Myth, Toki, Ghost'n'Goblins..... List goes on... Particular TOKI is a joke on the C64. Actually, I didn't like Turrican 1 on the Amiga. It looked too boring and the gameplay was somehow handicapped . Those Platformers run great on 16 Bit machines and on the Amiga graphics and sound added great to the fun to play them. First Samurai, Rick Dangerous and TOKI were an own class on the Amiga. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 As Emkay said, he likes to put more salt in the soup... C64 platformers like the ones named as "boring"...WOW...Games that sold and received excellent reviews in general for their play ability and programming yet to him they are boring... The games mostly lived by the VICII Graphics and the SID Music, for people who liked that styles. OK for them, and for me Hey, look, there is a hires pixel and a deeper note.... the game rocks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 Particular TOKI is a joke on the C64. Actually, I didn't like Turrican 1 on the Amiga. It looked too boring and the gameplay was somehow handicapped . Those Platformers run great on 16 Bit machines and on the Amiga graphics and sound added great to the fun to play them. First Samurai, Rick Dangerous and TOKI were an own class on the Amiga. Ok it's obvious that c64 Toki has it's faults and compared to original arcade game its graphics is shite. On the other hand it's a huge game with lots of levels, many different enemies, bosses, diverse gameplay and overall just a good fun (maybe little on a hard side). If it were original game and had just little more polished gfx it would've been one of top games at that time for 8bits. Guess what else ? Atari has nothing like that. NOTHING. Please if anyone knows anything similar correct me... Same as we have no Sam's journey type of game... Nor do we have Turrican like... @Rick and Turrican on Amiga - who cares ? I said C64 versions of Turrican and Rick are some of the best ever games, ever, anywhere imho. C64 Turrican is soooooo huge, fun and diverse that it's crazy... Rick Dangerous 1&2 on C64 are so polished they are better than Amiga or ST versions for me. The only reason why someone would think those are boring games is if he couldn't play them more than couple screens and gave up before he seen how awesome they are... Think I'll shut up now, and go back to coding of a new original game for our Atari ... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R0ger Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 I don't see game like this coming to Atari any time soon. It's miracle it happened on C64, and it has way bigger user base. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwilove Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 It would take 2 or more years of someone's hard work to produce something significant. But I hope someone who likes to tackle such a project - will make the editor for it available for use - so that it can grow into a much bigger game with more levels? The only downside to this - would be so many not so interesting levels made (that would be rejected of course) versus those which are playable as such. This has happened with Bentley Bear for the7800 - but so far - no one's produced any new playable levels/versions etc? Making such a level editor available - will enable people to put some work in - instead of just commenting about it. Harvey 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nojeee Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 I've been following this thread with interest ... and frequent smiles . I thought I'd chip in after the mention of First Samurai as I wrote the C64 version while the Amiga lead was being developed. It was clear that the C64 would have to be somewhat down scaled from the 16-bit versions but it still retained the majority of the Amiga's game play elements. I would hope that the end result couldn't be considered as boring - and the earlier suggestion from emkay that C64 scrollers are simple to code does undervalue the work involved. I loved developing 6502 games for A8, C64 and C16/Plus 4 as you really needed to have an understanding of how the hardware worked. When I moved onto C and C++ for console work there was a loss of that 'hands on' feel. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwilove Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 I've been following this thread with interest ... and frequent smiles . I thought I'd chip in after the mention of First Samurai as I wrote the C64 version while the Amiga lead was being developed. It was clear that the C64 would have to be somewhat down scaled from the 16-bit versions but it still retained the majority of the Amiga's game play elements. I would hope that the end result couldn't be considered as boring - and the earlier suggestion from emkay that C64 scrollers are simple to code does undervalue the work involved. I loved developing 6502 games for A8, C64 and C16/Plus 4 as you really needed to have an understanding of how the hardware worked. When I moved onto C and C++ for console work there was a loss of that 'hands on' feel. I hope that one day you might have an urge to return to 8-bit development? But that would depend on so many factors, etc. New titles that try to do something different - will always be appreciated. What is 'boring' to one person - may not be the same to another. I personally like to see something different show up in the game - and not for it to remain in 'standard mode' right throughout the game. Harvey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snicklin Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 I never understand criticism of C64 Toki. I think it is immense considering how much memory the machine has and as said, how diverse it is. Of course, 16 bit and arcade versions are better, but that is to be expected. I doubt the Atari could have Toki so well done (graphically) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 I've been following this thread with interest ... and frequent smiles . I thought I'd chip in after the mention of First Samurai as I wrote the C64 version while the Amiga lead was being developed. It was clear that the C64 would have to be somewhat down scaled from the 16-bit versions but it still retained the majority of the Amiga's game play elements. I would hope that the end result couldn't be considered as boring - and the earlier suggestion from emkay that C64 scrollers are simple to code does undervalue the work involved. I loved developing 6502 games for A8, C64 and C16/Plus 4 as you really needed to have an understanding of how the hardware worked. When I moved onto C and C++ for console work there was a loss of that 'hands on' feel. Oh... at least someone who actually coded games . What a8 games did you developed? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 And regarding C64 is easy... everyone who ever tried to code on that machine... at least for me as soon as you start to try something decent you always hit a limit limit in scrolling power (screen+color ram in 50 fps) VIC 16k Bank limit, bad lines etc etc etc... ppl tend to say a8 is cheating Btw Eye of the beholder on C64 looks marveleous. Have a chat with Veto how complicated and much work went into his adventure... just if you think C64 is easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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