jefffulton Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 I would agree. C64 coders had by 1993 been able to really find ways to push the machine to its limits based on the sheer number of hours spent on the hardware and the number of high highly skilled coders working on it for so many years. The Atari 8bits are just getting to see what can be done with Super IRG and the like on a standard 64K Atari system. I think if a new game was created for both systems, with the best set of coders for each system now, you could come up with comparable 8-way scrolling platformers with multi-colored back / foregrounds that look very similar on each system. Sure, I would much rather throw in Mayhem in Monsterland from 1993, but it would almost seem like an insult to compare an Atari homebrew from 2007 with a commercial C64 game released almost 15 years before. I wonder if it is the fact there are commercial publishers of new C64 games, and people willing to buy them, that makes recent homebrews so polished. I used to think that most of the new C64 games were quick and dirty releases, not much to pay attention to despite being a C64 user for 30+ years, but apparently the bar has been raised a couple of levels in the past few years. I'll assume there are commercial publishers of new Atari 8-bit games too, for developers to have something to strive towards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 (edited) @emkay:Aehm.... no? My impression is that you might turn others work down by saying easy when it actually is not under the hood. And yes. Sprites are strength of the C64 but that alone does not make Sams easy to write (excluding the content and art). We all know the strength and the weakness of platforms most simply because we coded on all of them? That doesnt mean we knew each platform well but at least we touch the different metal. Edited September 7, 2018 by Heaven/TQA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 I would agree. C64 coders had by 1993 been able to really find ways to push the machine to its limits based on the sheer number of hours spent on the hardware and the number of high highly skilled coders working on it for so many years. The Atari 8bits are just getting to see what can be done with Super IRG and the like on a standard 64K Atari system. I think if a new game was created for both systems, with the best set of coders for each system now, you could come up with comparable 8-way scrolling platformers with multi-colored back / foregrounds that look very similar on each system. Now Carlson is on the right track... list C64 commercial releases (or even the Spectrum NES etc releases) are so high bar and quality because ppl invest a lot of time. Why? Because ppl are willing to pay now. And say gaming biz is easier today with all the toolset. And ppl from gaming industry are coming back and code on C64 eg. Veto eg doing pro Grafics for games (priori Art) and everybody knows him for Carmen or Eye of Beholder.... or his work for Oxyron or in 90s for Thalion etc...there is much more experience nowadays than in 80s. Sad A8 scene lacks of coders and ppl willing to invest so much work as ppl do in C64 land... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefffulton Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 I know I'm way far behind in this conversation, but this game rocks! Are any of you guys aware of the fantastic scrolling platformer from 1993 by L.K. Avalon? I think it's going to be or is already, part of Duddie's classic re-releases. It's called Wloczykij , and I found this little gem a few months ago. I'm not suggesting any comparisons to the above games, but it's sort of a Dizzy clone I guess, but really well done. I've been playing it a lot lately. The only thing I don't like is that if you die, you have to start the level over and everything is reset, so even though you have like 5 lives, a strategy I already use is to just keep restarting the game, at least until I get past level one (memorization and practice), that way I have more restarts on level 2 and beyond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 Why dont we have things like: 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 @emkay:Aehm.... no? My impression is that you might turn others work down by saying easy when it actually is not under the hood. And yes. Sprites are strength of the C64 but that alone does not make Sams easy to write (excluding the content and art). We all know the strength and the weakness of platforms most simply because we coded on all of them? That doesnt mean we knew each platform well but at least we touch the different metal. Is this a first sign of Alzheimer's ? You forget things and get angry by that? I never wrote, it is easy to code games like Sam's Journey. I wrote that it is easy to write a sprite with scrolling game, compared to the Atari. Where you just can set any sprites by some pokes, and move the background by straight memory writes and set the scroll value. There is no need to handle dependencies at 1st. And you get quick results. If you dare to do that with pre-shifted software sprites on the Atari, you'd better store all possible screens on a 1GB USB Stick and sort all frames for an interactive movie. Pre-shifting software sprites and to use parallax scrolling would kill the CPU (if it was possible) . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefffulton Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 Everyone with a computer (Atari, C64, Timex, etc) got beaten up on the play ground. It was a "system" agnostic beating in the early 80's here in California. Aww - poor little Emkay is butt hurt again that the C64 got an awesome release. I'm starting to think he was a little geek in school that got beat up on the playground for having an Atari, rather than a C64. That's the only rational explanation for his otherwise schizophrenic behaviour. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 (edited) Why dont we have things like: Because they were built on the strengths of the C64. Edited September 7, 2018 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R0ger Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 Why dont we have things like: Well you didn't make such game. I didn't make such game. Neither did emkay. So I guess that's why We might not be able to have games this pretty, but we should be able to have games this much original, this much well done, with this much passion put into them. As for me, it just takes too long. My current game (to be released soon), which is pretty simple, took 2 years to be made. I have plans for way bigger games, but how long is that going to take, no idea. When you doing it in you free time, for free, it will be like this. Maybe the only difference is that on C64 more people will buy the game, so people can invest more time into it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 (edited) They could also be built on the strengths of the Atari Every drive a car high rpm's lower gear ratio..... vs lower rpms and higher gear ratio? and find they have about the same time and top speed? It requires different shifting strategies but the end results are just about the same. You just have to know how to handle and drive them. Same with the computers. It can be done just in slightly different ways. If you aren't going to help then go find something else on all the other threads. You seem to like to keep people from trying and experimenting. Please stop making us waste our time on the old my socks are better than his socks arguments. We are getting some good advances on the Atari these days, who knows what some one will do and how it works out. What if we listened to how the glitch in the Jaguar was so bad in the Jag that no one should make anything at all on it, or that programs shouldn't access things 'backwards'... I like tempest 2k and a few others... different platform with all the same it can't do that like this one can crap, and then an inventive coder did it. Why always stand in the way? Help find the way using what you can. What purpose does no no no no no never serve? The Atari is a very capable machine and when coupled with people who know how to get it's best, can do just about anything machines of that age could, and as has been proven, without modification or help from outside in the cartridge or otherwise. But I bet if someone wished that outside help in a cart could be done as well. I still find the 8 bit line from Atari produces some of the best game play and sometimes even better graphics than on some other machines. It came down to who drew or coded it and what they made the machine pull off. Brilliant things can be done on all platforms... Edited September 7, 2018 by _The Doctor__ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 Hey lets toss out all our gaming rigs! My latest PC with 8 cores and nvidea physix engine doesn't do sams like it is on the c64. face meets palm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 (edited) They could also be built on the strengths of the Atari Every drive a car high rpm's lower gear ratio..... vs lower rpms and higher gear ratio? and find they have about the same time and top speed? ... Why always stand in the way? Help find the way using what you can. What purpose does no no no no no never serve? Why do people stand in their own way? Two totally contrary points in one post. I know, it's useless, but I give two additional examples: 1. Gyruss The game is great, it has the touch of the arcade. The only way to have it is the used Antic D mode. In this mode , it is like the cpu runs at the triple speed. There is a gain of 50% by less Cycle stealing by ANTIC, but ANTIC fills 50% of the screen without the need of any CPU cycle. 2. Moon Patrol The game is great, it has the touch of the arcade. It became possible due to the straight use of the Playfield in character mode and direct programming of the Player Missile Graphics. addendum This works great, because the amount of moving objects and how they move, weren't hitting the handicap/limits of the Atari. The 1970s Hardware of the Atari simply misses hardware features of the 80s. To build them in the 70s was too expensive, so the original 400/800 and how they were built, was "beyond" the time. But , not to add the features when the creation of hardware got cheaper, was a big mistake. That's why even the VIC20 has features, the Atari could dream of. A GTIA with some better moving objects.... imagine the type of Sprites the Amiga has, the PMg fill up the whole screen, they could build a full parallax layer by hardware. A real hires color mode... But that didn't happen. Edited September 7, 2018 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 why is it every thread becomes the emkay it's impossible thread.... of course thankfully so many have ignored 'it's impossible emkay' that we actually got so many wonderful titles in spite of his constant can't do attitude. You are a hard one to understand emkay, I supported you so many times about a number of things but now in retrospect I am starting to have no choice but to concede to your detractors and admit they are correct about you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 why is it every thread becomes the emkay it's impossible thread.... of course thankfully so many have ignored 'it's impossible emkay' that we actually got so many wonderful titles in spite of his constant can't do attitude. You are a hard one to understand emkay, I supported you so many times about a number of things but now in retrospect I am starting to have no choice but to concede to your detractors and admit they are correct about you. Only in their perception. Which game, of "emkay said it's impossible", did you actually find on the Atari? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 (edited) over the years you said many such things.... I entreat all who care to scour the threads and see, I really don't wish to spend hours of my time digging up each one. Feel free to avail yourself of the readily available Atari Age resources and read your own words. There is no need for me to do such things. You can then argue with yourself about your own posts. Impossibly yours, Edited September 7, 2018 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 Vice versa, If people read what I was writing, they wouldn't waste time with impossible stuff, and put the same time into "what's possible" . A "Antic D" game with fitting PMg overlay could get very colorful and the speed would give playing fun . But people want to have the "C64" look... which is like humbing over their own legs on purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 over the years you said many such things.... I entreat all who care to scour the threads and see, I really don't wish to spend hours of my time digging up each one. Feel free to avail yourself of the readily available Atari Age resources and read your own words. There is no need for me to do such things. You can then argue with yourself about your own posts. So you have build an opinion without any cause and evidence? That's exactly why things don't get done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 What are you smoking emkay? I recommend no one else touch that stuff whatever it is! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R0ger Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 What are you smoking emkay? I recommend no one else touch that stuff whatever it is! Emkay is emkay, what would we do without him 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 What are you smoking emkay? I recommend no one else touch that stuff whatever it is! The problem seems to be that I never smoked anything 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 Emkay is emkay, what would we do without him At least José Pereira did listen to my writings. He learned fast. Not sure why, but people listened to his word then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 (edited) Yeah because the original 6502 source code from the apple could never be modified for use on the Atari.... you are showing how silly you can be... https://github.com/jmechner/Prince-of-Persia-Apple-II sigh.... Edited September 7, 2018 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 (edited) Yeah because the original 6502 source code from the apple could never be modified for use on the Atari.... you are showing how silly you can be... Not sure , what's your intention with that senseless post. Ofcourse a 6502 is a 6502 . Changing addresses is not the hardest thing in the world. But particular graphics get attention, after people claim to have C64 graphics by converting the 7 Bit +1 Bit Artefacting of the Apple to the Atari. Please, if you want to communicate, please explain, what you want to say . Thanks. Edited September 7, 2018 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 (edited) emkay even your own countrymen don't seem to understand you... it seems 'it's impossible emkay' is now impossible to converse with... I've seen plenty of graphics on the A8 that I prefer over the Commodore, and vice versa.... it's in the eye of the beholder... by the way sams won't play on my commodore 64, I would need to modify it or buy an REU.... so it won't run on my stock machines either... Edited September 7, 2018 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patjomki Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 (edited) Why dont we have things like: [...] Because we have things like this: Of course the number of developers is much higher and it is easier to programm for C64. So it no surprise that there are more programs for the C64 than for A8 but considering that the ATARI is a machine from the 70's we shouldn't complain. There are still a lot of outstanding productions each year. Edited September 7, 2018 by patjomki 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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