emkay Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 Guess what else ? Atari has nothing like that. NOTHING. Please if anyone knows anything similar correct me... My words. So where is the point to ask for a game like Sam's Journey ? @Rick and Turrican on Amiga - who cares ? I said C64 versions of Turrican and Rick are some of the best ever games, ever, anywhere imho. C64 Turrican is soooooo huge, fun and diverse that it's crazy... Rick Dangerous 1&2 on C64 are so polished they are better than Amiga or ST versions for me. Particular Turrican suffers by the gameplay and the low CPU speed. The Amiga version is a "Remake" of that , and you feel it everywhere in the game. Turrican 2 on the Amiga is a real powerful presentation with great game elements. You also don't get the feeling of an handicapped game. With all that triggering and mysterious gaming-element-restrictions. The only reason why someone would think those are boring games is if he couldn't play them more than couple screens and gave up before he seen how awesome they are... .... or it's just that there is no "drive" to play it? Think I'll shut up now, and go back to coding of a new original game for our Atari ... Good idea. How about a game , based on "The Monk", with a huge story and a broad variation gaming elements? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 I don't see game like this coming to Atari any time soon. It's miracle it happened on C64, and it has way bigger user base. It's no miracle at all. Today PCs offer everything to build great amounts of graphics data, SID music, and coding is fast... compiling takes no time. Added by the fact that C64 is prepared to have hardware libraries, to set registers in a simple but logical way, so every programming starter has the possibility of a quick result for a working game with sprites and scrolling. On the Atari it eventually ends up in a Gordian knot, if you don't know exactly, what you do there. See Stunt Car Racer? The game works with the same logics as the C64 version, because it uses the byte depending character mode, which allows to use the linear logic of the "original". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 Btw Eye of the beholder on C64 looks marvelous. On a screenshot it looks like 16 Bit. While on the Atari, you quickly would get a moan about the tearing of the "action" field. Not to say that the game is done C64 typical: A big range of non moving graphics with a small game screen. Even the small gaming screen with tearing is rather slow. Yes, the C64 could run the game from the floppy, but Cartridges have been there even before the C64. So that game is really possible on the Atari, where it could look AND PLAY like a 16 Bit version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 I hope that one day you might have an urge to return to 8-bit development? But that would depend on so many factors, etc. New titles that try to do something different - will always be appreciated. What is 'boring' to one person - may not be the same to another. I personally like to see something different show up in the game - and not for it to remain in 'standard mode' right throughout the game. Harvey Jon already has returned with a game port of his from the C16 called Baby Berks, have a look, its really run....And yes, what is boring to some may be great to others but in Emkays case he picks on a set of games that were universally loved and played to death (and still are), perhaps he has a rather odd taste compared to others Too much salt I reckon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 (edited) Oh... at least someone who actually coded games . What a8 games did you developed? And old almost unknown little game from English Software called Jet Boot Jack He's also the maker of Multiboot... Aka Jon Williams... A gentleman and a scholar.... https://www.retrogamer.net/profiles/company/english-software/ Edited September 3, 2018 by Mclaneinc 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 (edited) My words. So where is the point to ask for a game like Sam's Journey ? Particular Turrican suffers by the gameplay and the low CPU speed. The Amiga version is a "Remake" of that , and you feel it everywhere in the game. Turrican 2 on the Amiga is a real powerful presentation with great game elements. You also don't get the feeling of an handicapped game. With all that triggering and mysterious gaming-element-restrictions. .... or it's just that there is no "drive" to play it? Good idea. How about a game , based on "The Monk", with a huge story and a broad variation gaming elements? Manfred Trenz obviously liked a shoot em up, his early C64 work apart from some help on Giana Sisters was all shooters and I remember of the time (didn't see it in person) he was at one of the shows with Katakis and the R-Type conversion holder (Activision??) grabbed his and his little team in for a chat which ended up with all sorts of things going on..I seem to remember they were almost press ganged in to doing the port....(Someone who knows him might comment) But what Manfred knew was the folk loved a shooter and he was developing his skills so Turrican while not his first shooter was snapped up but it wasn't as polished as later games but it was miles ahead of what was out there. You have to compare it with what was there at the time and not what came later.. One of his later games didn't even get published by RA, I think it ended up on a mag(?), the game was inforcer / enforcers? and was missing all the super glitz of the newer stuff hence cheaply moved but I seem to remember the game being damn good fun (if you like Shumps).. Lol...Just did a quick google to check some stuff and stopped when I saw the great man also did Crazy Frog for the GBA...Lol... Must check it out..Can't be bothered to check the other bits but I think I'm mostly near.. Turrican was his springboard title, its still great fun, I personally prefer the Amiga versions for Chris's music and the graphic additions but the C64 version initial one was and is a very playable game, especially to the folks at the time of release.. Edited September 3, 2018 by Mclaneinc 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R0ger Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 It's no miracle at all. Well of course, if someone is going to do it on Atari, it's going to be you. You seem to have all the problems solved, it's basically done, right ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 Well of course, if someone is going to do it on Atari, it's going to be you. You seem to have all the problems solved, it's basically done, right ? I have a clue for you: Read first, then write. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 And old almost unknown little game from English Software called Jet Boot Jack He's also the maker of Multiboot... Aka Jon Williams... A gentleman and a scholar.... https://www.retrogamer.net/profiles/company/english-software/ aaah... good old Jet Boot Jack... had it on tape Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R0ger Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 I have a clue for you: Read first, then write. So no game from you ? Not so simple ? Pity .. sorry for misunderstanding. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 So no game from you ? Not so simple ? Pity .. sorry for misunderstanding. Why should I even bother to write a game on the C64? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 Have you been snorting that salt? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 Why should I even bother to write a game on the C64? Maybe to get a feeling for the machine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 (edited) Which is Emkay, Sark or MCP You decide, who has the control over all the systems without needing to touch them Edited September 3, 2018 by Mclaneinc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 Maybe to get a feeling for the machine? No need to code on the C64 to get a feeling for it. It looks somehow hard to you, to code the C64, because you have learned a lot of what the Atari can do. So you were familiar with the restrictions for coding on it. As everything is new, when you start on a fully different machine, the restrictions and expectations may not fit. What's so hard to read register write register for the x position of a sprite read register write register for the y position of a sprite read register write register for the face of the sprite ???? On the Atari, particular this simple programming ends up in immense software routines and RAM usage. Those SPRITE with SCROLLING games on the C64 ARE peanuts, compared to the extense that exchanges the software for hardware features on the Atari. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 No need to code on the C64 to get a feeling for it. It looks somehow hard to you, to code the C64, because you have learned a lot of what the Atari can do. So you were familiar with the restrictions for coding on it. As everything is new, when you start on a fully different machine, the restrictions and expectations may not fit. What's so hard to read register write register for the x position of a sprite read register write register for the y position of a sprite read register write register for the face of the sprite ?? On the Atari, particular this simple programming ends up in immense software routines and RAM usage. Those SPRITE with SCROLLING games on the C64 ARE peanuts, compared to the extense that exchanges the software for hardware features on the Atari. ah good that you know what make it hard for me... but truth is... yes... similar to Amiga vs ST... and not ST vs Amiga... when you are used to some feature set and it get hard on another platform... but I tell you what... when being on C64 you suddenly realise what A8 is missing... and in a normal game scenario of the 80s (not talking about Capture the flag, Fractalus, etc...) C64 has more horsepower to get the job done... it has colors/colorram, can scroll (even you need to shift data around... but you would need to do it on A8, too... neverless the display list feature) and the slow 6510. the 16k VIC bank can be a limit (but not in a game scenario I am sure)... then 56k vs 66k or even 48k vs 66k.... etc etc etc... stable raster IRQs, all possible, too on c64 so WSYNC is nice but not necessary... 128/256 color range? ok... nice but you can live with the 16 "global fixed" colors... etc etc... the c64 really give A8 a punch with the sprites... look... Miner's "sprite tech" live on in Amiga with same "uselessness"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 and did we ever get a clue why A8 has only 128 chars instead of 256? what was the real reason? can not be the 5th color imho... even crappy VIC-1 in the VIC20 has 256... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nojeee Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 No need to code on the C64 to get a feeling for it. It looks somehow hard to you, to code the C64, because you have learned a lot of what the Atari can do. So you were familiar with the restrictions for coding on it. As everything is new, when you start on a fully different machine, the restrictions and expectations may not fit. What's so hard to read register write register for the x position of a sprite read register write register for the y position of a sprite read register write register for the face of the sprite ???? On the Atari, particular this simple programming ends up in immense software routines and RAM usage. Those SPRITE with SCROLLING games on the C64 ARE peanuts, compared to the extense that exchanges the software for hardware features on the Atari. OK, my turn to bite this time . I started writing machine code for the A8 in 1982 when there was no Internet or forums and everything had to be learned by reading magazines or purchasing specialist books like De Re Atari ... and delving into the operating system to work out what was happening. I moved onto the C64 a few years later (only because of the UK market) and getting up and running was an identical experience. The C64 was no harder or easier to write for, just different. Your idea that PMG routines on the Atari are immense is wrong. The amount of code is dwarfed by the rest of the program. Now, one area I do agree with you is in the wonderful programs now available to speed up development. However, that's as true for the A8 as it is for the C64. I appreciate that there is more available for the C64 due to it's user base but the Atari has sufficient tools to help. I can currently use WUDSN to assemble my old A8, C64 and Plus 4 code. The source level debugging in Altirra is excellent and saves so much time debugging. You recently said that the C64 scene has libraries that enable you to get up and running quickly but that's just a fraction of the time it takes to write a decent program. Most programmers would have their own common routines anyway and could get a shell together very quickly, it's then the lengthy task of getting the main game together - which I'd argue is the same for C64 or A8. It looks like there are numerous experienced programmers on this thread and it's strange that you ignore their comments. It reminds me of a certain Monty Python sketch of the past 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nojeee Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 and did we ever get a clue why A8 has only 128 chars instead of 256? what was the real reason? can not be the 5th color imho... even crappy VIC-1 in the VIC20 has 256... How true ... I'm currently converting one of my C16 games to the A8 and the character restriction was a real problem (which I got around by writing an immense routine to use player graphics - sorry emkay, couldn't resist ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 How true ... I'm currently converting one of my C16 games to the A8 and the character restriction was a real problem (which I got around by writing an immense routine to use player graphics - sorry emkay, couldn't resist ) yeah. I looked in some VIC20 games I wanted to port after Gridrunner and Metagalactic Llamas... and most needed massive rewrite due to 256 chars... so i sticked to 3,5kb games as they usually have less chars...but there are still many Llamasoft games out there which I would like to see on A8, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R0ger Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 Well nobody here has full insight into Sam's journey. I've heard it's by far not as simple as moving few sprites, but I can't go into details, as I don't know them. What I meant by Sam's journey is a miracle, is the fact, that a programmer took it as a main job for more than a year, if I understand it correctly. That's unlikely to happen on Atari. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 (edited) Your idea that PMG routines on the Atari are immense is wrong. As long as a game is intended to look like... ... i'm wrong. Edited September 4, 2018 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 It looks like there are numerous experienced programmers on this thread and it's strange that you ignore their comments. It reminds me of a certain Monty Python sketch of the past It IS such a piece. And it more relies on the fact that people want to get things done where it is impossible. Even if they know about the restrictions. About the "experienced coders" , I don't want to explain things here. But, there are really experienced coders and because they know that they do, there is no need to argue about things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 (edited) Well nobody here has full insight into Sam's journey. I've heard it's by far not as simple as moving few sprites, but I can't go into details, as I don't know them. What I meant by Sam's journey is a miracle, is the fact, that a programmer took it as a main job for more than a year, if I understand it correctly. That's unlikely to happen on Atari. You have heard things, really? What is it that could be misunderstood here? Sam's Journey is a lot of work. But, as you know the background story, there is a huge base on participants for the gfx, sound and level design behind it. Then there is the game engine, that a good coder could write in a weekend. When on the Atari such a development may take months or even years, without any further development. Then, after all, it may take another year to get the things together... Edited September 4, 2018 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 in 1 weekend? aha... then I must be bad as coder like hell... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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