Atari 130XE keyboard rebuild: vintage keycaps on modern switches

[XL Freak]

1 minute ago, _The Doctor__ said:

If not using many extra custom keys judicious striping of key cap prints across differing orders might allow to get a full extra keyboard after a number of orders so many orders etc.

I've thought of that, but different shapes per row and different cap shapes like the new return key, large shift keys, etc make this all but impossible. the free keys are all 1U or 1.25U, and are almost all on the top or bottom rows. very few spares on the 2 middle rows. and... we've used up all the spares on the bottom row. if you were to do the best you could, filling in the blanks ordering them separately would cost more than ordering a set. but I appreciate that your mind is working to help us. tomorrow I may investigate this theory on the larger full keycap set...

[ScreamingAtTheRadio]

@XL Freak I'll make sure people who have pre-orders get the layout they want. Most are asking for assembly so the layout will have to be decided in advance. There's a single, configurable board, but once it's soldered, it's hard to change.

[ScreamingAtTheRadio]

I made a short video to show the installation of a new Decent XE keyboard inside a previously unopened 130XE:

 

[Nolium]

The keyboard really sounds very nice. Awesome!

[_The Doctor__]

The cable needs 180 degree twist on the original run then? That answered the questions a couple of people had that haven't come forward to ask publicly. Good confirmation.

Edited March 6, 2023 by _The Doctor__

[ScreamingAtTheRadio]

25 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said:

The cable needs 180 degree twist on the original run then? That answered the questions a couple of people had that haven't come forward to ask publicly. Good confirmation.

That is exactly why I redesigned the adapters to not necessitate the turn. The pre-orders will get the new adapter. I've also ordered some longer cables to make everything easy.

 

Oh, and the new adapters also have separated backlighting lines (back-compat with the old adapters), and an optional pot to tune the LED brightness.

Edited March 6, 2023 by ScreamingAtTheRadio

[Dr.Mercury]

4 hours ago, Nolium said:

The keyboard really sounds very nice. Awesome!

Yeah. I love the clicky sound as well but I recently got more and more in the bumpy sound of the brown ones (the sound is not as annoying as the clicky sound for other persons in the same room 😀)

[malachykidd]

I occurs to me to ask: how many LEDs for the backlight and how many mA do they draw at full brightness?  I don't expect they'll tax even an original power supply, but it might be good to know for a heavily modified computer if they're consuming an extra, say, 100 mA.

[ScreamingAtTheRadio]

11 minutes ago, malachykidd said:

I occurs to me to ask: how many LEDs for the backlight and how many mA do they draw at full brightness?  I don't expect they'll tax even an original power supply, but it might be good to know for a heavily modified computer if they're consuming an extra, say, 100 mA.

That's a good question, I haven't measured yet. Note that you don't have to use the backlighting, it can be turned off. The new adapters also have a space for a pot or resistor (or switch if you so wish) to limit the current to all of them at once. They each have a 100Ohm resistor behind them.

[ScreamingAtTheRadio]

While I'm waiting for the parts to build the pre-orders, I've been doing some paint tests for function keys. First, I'll say that painting those is way too much work, and for now at least y'all will have to do it on the white 3D-printed parts that will come with the kits and assembled keyboards (if you went for modern caps). OK, so here are some results:

I put this next to my newest XE case (new-old stock from Best) for reference. There's also a Start key from an old-new stock keyboard on the bottom and a slightly more yellowed vintage Help key next to it which is a retrobrighted key from my childhood 130XE.

Then on top, we have two caps printed in filament (which is why they look like crap in terms of texture), with a coat of primer and an airbrushed layer of Tamiya Medium Sea Gray 2 acrylic model paint. This paint is pretty spot-on in terms of tint (I guess you could try adding a liiitle bit of yellow to match the vintage plastics), and exists both in liquid cans (pictured) and spray can forms. This paint is very easy to find in model shops (got mine from my local Hobby Lobby).

Under those, we have two resin-printed caps that got the exact same treatment but look way better in terms of texture (they are pretty much perfect in that regard).

Those don't have a varnish / protection layer, but it would definitely be a good idea to finalize the look and protect the paint from continued usage.

Finally on the right, you can also see an interesting result from some grey filament that I had around and that I used to print this prototype JoyKey Mini case. Texture is bad of course, this is untreated filament, but the color is pretty good.

In case you're wondering, I don't know of a resin that would be a good match without painting. The one I have is way too blu-ish.

Another thing is the legends. I attempted to apply some white paint with a needle and it was a failure (as you can see). The paint makes the relief of the legend too undefined and the trick I used before on the clear red caps of applying acrylic and then wiping out the excess just won't work once you've painted the caps.

I think the only thing that will work in the end will be either laser engraving (I don't know, maybe there's a way to set the laser just at the right power to remove the coat of paint and reveal the white resin underneath), or some kind of printer (sublimation?). Another thing I'm considering is filling the legend "holes" with something, maybe some kind of paste, wiping the excess, then paint over it and finally carefully removing the extra matter from the holes with a blade or something. Seems like a lot of work and I'm not sure that would not damage the paint around the legend. If somebody has other ideas, I'd love to hear them.

 

So yeah, that's it for this post. Summary: the pre-orders will have white function keys and it'll be left as an exercise to each recipient to figure out what they want to do about them. Of course, if you're using vintage caps, you won't have to solve that problem.

[Nolium]

What about a dark grey, one that matches dark grey (Atari Falcon) modern keycaps? I really don't mind if the color of function keys doesn't match case color. Cases are of different shade of gray or worse because of ageing anyway, even when you retro-brighten them. I don't mind white function keys, but would prefer the dark grey.

I think it would look great.

[ScreamingAtTheRadio]

9 hours ago, Nolium said:

What about a dark grey, one that matches dark grey (Atari Falcon) modern keycaps?

You'd need to find a resin that exact shade, which is much harder than finding the right paint. 

Other ideas: vinyl stickers

What this guy's been doing. Tricky but the results are great: https://mobile.twitter.com/mozzwald/status/1413322334287564803

[+scorpio_ny]

Hi @ScreamingAtTheRadio,

 

Is it possible to buy just the parts so one can assemble themselves? I used to ordering the boards, but I do not need so many copies when one orders?

 

Also, do the PCB’s come with the LED’s pre-installed when you order them?

 

Thanks!

 

 

[ScreamingAtTheRadio]

1 hour ago, scorpio_ny said:

Hi @ScreamingAtTheRadio,

 

Is it possible to buy just the parts so one can assemble themselves? I used to ordering the boards, but I do not need so many copies when one orders?

 

Also, do the PCB’s come with the LED’s pre-installed when you order them?

Yes, there are kits available, and I can give you a custom quote if there are components you prefer to order yourself.

The PCBs come with LEDs, anti-ghosting diodes and resistors already mounted. You still have to solder the power LED and connector.

[pseudografx]

Can't you add dye to resin before printing?

[ScreamingAtTheRadio]

8 minutes ago, pseudografx said:

Can't you add dye to resin before printing?

Technically you can, but the results are too inconsistent. Also, I'm trying to stop printing the resin parts myself (it's too messy and doesn't scale) and externalize them. 3D printing services don't have much choices in terms of color.

Now if you want to give that a try, you absolutely can, I'm happy to point you to the right files on the repo.

[+MrFish]

Not to distract anyone from the work at hand... but, it occurred to me that an XE version of the CX85 might be a worthwhile parallel (or follow-up) project.

 

[ScreamingAtTheRadio]

2 hours ago, MrFish said:

Not to distract anyone from the work at hand... but, it occurred to me that an XE version of the CX85 might be a worthwhile parallel (or follow-up) project.

 

If anybody wants to donate one, I'll bite 😅

[+MrFish]

16 minutes ago, ScreamingAtTheRadio said:

If anybody wants to donate one, I'll bite 😅

Cool... unfortunately, I don't own one (anymore); so, maybe someone else would be wiling to step up here.

 

[+MrFish]

11 hours ago, ScreamingAtTheRadio said:

If anybody wants to donate one, I'll bite 😅

As a starting point, the CX85 Service Manual does have a technical drawing, schematic, and parts list. There's also a schematic in the CX85 Technical Reference Notes.

 

[ScreamingAtTheRadio]

Quick and dirty concept sketch. This what you had in mind?

[XL Freak]

i really like that idea! but how bout Falcon themed?

Edited March 13, 2023 by XL Freak

[ScreamingAtTheRadio]

So @XL Freak we need to adopt the CX85 keys (not the layout, just the set of keys). That means Enter also is the + key, there are no ()*/, there are yes and no keys, an escape, a delete and no insert. The direction pad is really a joystick (doesn't replicate the keyboard's arrows without special software). We need a fire key close to the directions.

 

The idea with the concept above is that the CX85 stuff is using one of the joystick ports, and the directional pad the other. It's pretty neat. I think we can still repeat the DB9 plugs on the right of the unit to plug regular joysticks. Since all this is basically passive switches, that should work without having to add switches to toggle between internal and external circuits. All in a way that's compatible with the existing hardware.

Edited March 13, 2023 by ScreamingAtTheRadio

[XL Freak]

I see. let me know if I can help

[_The Doctor__]

direction keys could have joystick graphic next to them,

cx85 had overlays for different software packages to let the keys mean whatever they decided to use them for.

or the keypad handler could be extended with as many keys as people like, all kinds of ideas.

 

I like the joystick combined with cx 85 idea, you could take this all the way and have joy 2 b functionality etc.