End of cooperation with Lotharek

[candle]

As you may all know, there are severe shortages in semiconductor market, thus I was asked by Lotharek to redesign and cost-reduce Side3 cart so it would be more susteinable (many options for populating board) and cheaper to manufacture

Jonathan and I spent several months doing this, and resolving all issues that were caused by this redesign.
Also, VHDL logic was extended so it would be both compatible with old hardware as with new.
I wanted to give something more to existing Side3 users so they could benefit from hardware they already own, expanding its capabilities to handle extended memory (up to 512kb) and PBI bios without pairing it with Ultimate1MB

Since Lattice MACHXO2 chip was not obtainable, lot of research went into getting another chip that would provide a drop-in replecement (with little to no board modifications) and this was also suceeded

In the end, I've made 2 board revisions to accomodate whatever chips Lotharek could buy, plus have spent countelss hours of debugging issues that arose

Considering the amount of time spent, and general level of income from royalities this project made, i've proposed to Lotharek to raise my fee from 8 to 12usd from every unit sold - we agreed on 8usd in 2019 and this was never increased
Official inflation in Poland is 17.2% right now, and expected to hit 20% with the end of the year

Lotharek refused, then sent me another letter saing how stupid I am, and ended cooperation

In response, I've asked him not to sell any of projects he was licensing in his shop

Please take this into consideration when you buy stuff from Lotharek - make sure if he has the rights to do so, and if he is paying royalities back to the authors, because without them, there will be no new projects for your system.
 

[JayoK]

Sorry to hear this conclusion - I mean Lotharek was transparent that included in the cost was fees to the designer/authors of the software - which I have no issue with - I don't understand the objection to increase from $8 - $12, as the cost simply needed to be passed to the purchaser IMHO.

 

As for inflation, it's rampant worldwide

[TheNameOfTheGame]

All because of $4 a unit?  That's unfortunate.  With inflation nowdays, he could just raise the price by $5 a unit and no one would notice.

[Tillek]

Just for the sake of those who want to support you but may not know who really did what over the years, could you let us know what products those are?

 

And if possible, where else we might get them?

[candle]

this would be

spectre, side3, 6502plus4, hydra2, hydra mini, melody carts (opx, sid, psg and others), u1mb external version (internal "old" version was legitimatly sold with all rights to Lotharek), tikus or whatever name that is, aki usb and many many more

 

where else? unfortunatly nowhere - i do have smt assembly line i've purchased few years ago, but never had the time or have the space to make it operational

 

[flashjazzcat]

12 hours ago, JayoK said:

I mean Lotharek was transparent that included in the cost was fees to the designer/authors of the software - which I have no issue with - I don't understand the objection to increase from $8 - $12, as the cost simply needed to be passed to the purchaser IMHO.

I don't know how much more the purchaser could stand when SIDE3 already costs £100 (including P&P) at RetroLemon (for reasons which aren't necessarily clear when the two authors receive ~$8 each). Meanwhile, the surcharge for the FJC versions of U1MB, Incognito and SIDE2 is more than double the amount paid to me. On the one hand, this isn't the customer's concern, but it can be when the customer deliberately buys the FJC firmware (which they could flash themselves in two minutes for free) specifically because they make a naive assumption (as some do, and not only customers) that the entire premium comes my way (which it does not, for complex, business-minded reasons offered as the rebuttal to any attempts to haggle when initial terms were agreed).

Edited October 10, 2022 by flashjazzcat

[+Stephen]

Well this is very unfortunate.  Does this mean that all the new upgrades fjc just recently showed are now cancelled?

[candle]

Lotharek just text me,  that he is going to sue me for 70000pln

"because of this post"

 

[xxl]

I understand that you have not come to an agreement on the new versions. I have a question, what about the equipment already produced, is Lothark's inventory also subject to this blackmail?

[+x=usr(1536)]

While I have no vested interest in the activities taking place, as a purchaser of some of these devices - and one who intends to purchase more of them in the future - I do want to see them continue in production.  As part of that, I also want to see a reasonable financial return to all involved for the production of these devices.

 

As a proposal: would ending exclusive licensing and having at least two suppliers per territory be workable?  I realise that there are hurdles to overcome with that (quality control being one of the more obvious ones), but it may help with ensuring that nobody can hold pricing or production hostage at the retail end.  Multiple retailers would be able to compete on not only pricing including the base figure of licensing fees and production costs, but also availability.  Yes, some things already fall into this category, but not all and not in all territories.

 

@flashjazzcat: Thank you for clarifying the situation regarding royalties related to IP that you have developed.  I have made a point (in both cases ) of buying devices that ship with your firmware installed for two reasons: one, it's the firmware that I intend to use; two, I want to see you compensated for the not inconsiderable efforts you have put into it.  That you are not receiving the entire markup in cost for those efforts certainly helps to inform my future purchasing decisions.  Being well aware of the possibility that I could buy <insert device here> with someone else's firmware installed, then flash yours on it for the low, low cost of nothing isn't lost on me, but I'd much rather support the people who make these devices possible.

 

@candle: Everything I said above regarding support and compensation for flashjazzcat also applies in your case.  Of course we all want to buy these items as cheaply as possible, but you should absolutely be adequately compensated for your work as well.  This includes accounting for inflation (for both of you!).  And I firmly believe that anyone selling your devices should be working that compensation into their base costs.

 

I'll stop there before this goes into a full-on rant.  I wish both of you an equitable resolution to this situation, because you both (as well as the people who retail these items) certainly deserve it.

[+x=usr(1536)]

Deleted

[candle]

Designs I make are designed to be assembled on automated assembly line

whether it is humble TVM802 I have, or something really fancy it does not matter

If someone comes to me and ask about licensing I always want to know their bacground, as if they have something similiar lauched with sucess before

 

Some of you might remember how VBXE2 run ended up - some of you might be those lucky individuals that actually received something for their money...

 

Bottom line is i'm open for any suggestions, but right now, from what I was informed by Lotharek, I have other issues to resolve

 

[Ricky Spanish]

That's why , you need either A: a lawyer to write up the contract (especially if it evolves a lot of money) or B: Write it up yourself and make sure you cover all the bases, including unforeseen circumstances.  

[candle]

xxl: what is already manufactured is his posession, and it's up to him on how to proceed. I don't care, and I understand, that there were costs involved on both sides

blakmail?

 

Edited October 9, 2022 by candle

[TheNameOfTheGame]

51 minutes ago, candle said:

Lotharek just text me,  that he is going to sue me for 70000pln

"because of this post"

 

Oh Lord, there is no need for such drama.  Lotharek, if you read this, take a deep breath and let the tempers cool down. Raise the price $4 on the candle's developments and write up a new contract to stipulate the details so he gets compensated as such and everybody wins.  I doubt any sales will be lost if the price is $4 higher especially if people know the reason for the increase.  My goodness.

Edited October 9, 2022 by TheNameOfTheGame

[xxl]

2 hours ago, flashjazzcat said:

Meanwhile, the surcharge for the FJC versions of U1MB, Incognito and SIDE2 is more than double the amount paid to me.

a classic example of a scabies. From the normal business side: what happens if Lotarek stops charging YOUR business? It can sell hardware without pre-installing YOUR software and let each customer PAY YOU, then you will see how much this service is worth.

[xxl]

1 hour ago, candle said:

blakmail?

this is not blackmail? Why this thread, if not to undermine the credibility of the producer and gather a crowd to put pressure on him?

56 minutes ago, TheNameOfTheGame said:

Lotharek, if you read this, ...

[scottinNH]

Awful news, sorry.   

 

I don't fully understand all the layers here, but in a nutshell Lotharek's role is something like logistics/inventory+assembly+testing? As in, no development, yeah?  (This question not intended to diminish anyone's effort through characterization. My question is innocent).

 

If so, what are the state of China "board assembly services"? As in, using someone else or non-exclusive to get boards assembled and tested. Is this an option?

 

I agree with other posts: prices need to be raised. You have to loop past products as labors of love, and charge enough for it to be sustainable to all parties and including the possibility of covering any "bumps in the road". If you feel the costs are too high, let the customers decide that through purchasing or not.

 

 

[+Stephen]

3 hours ago, candle said:

Some of you might remember how VBXE2 run ended up

Yeah - never received anything from that shit head sloopy that I paid for.  He screwed me a second time on the purchase of an Amiga (after begging me to buy it so he could buy food).  Took 2 years to get it, it was filthy, and I still never got the keyboard (I know I never will).  All around great guy.

[+gnusto]

Well about nothing in this entire thread makes sense to me. $4 per unit leads to all this? You guys have a small but pretty much captive audience. They aren't going to go anywhere else. Obviously there is a point where people no longer buy, but I don't think $4 makes that difference. Also I don't think a forum post is anything to sue anybody over, even when the disagreement is wide.

And in a completely self centered way I still want cool stuff for my 8bits. Seems that is less likely with the outcome here.

[Mark2008]

Lotharek is  one of the better dealers of Atari equipment.

So, this falling out is a true pity.

 

I buy so much equipment - including a sloopy vbxe, btw - never got it.  But that isnt' even the half of it, lots of equipment arrives partially working, intermittently working, doa, or even dangerous....so whatever downside there may be to workign with Lotharek, from a consumer perspective he's operating at a level of professionalism that was a clear improvement over what we had before.

 

the products u1mb, vbxe, side2, side3 - have worked great, have been awesome for advancing the hobby, and that's due to the engineering talents, software writing talents, and manufacturing and selling ability - that candle, fjc, and lotharek represented for a time.  That was truly special - sad to hear about the breakup.

 

I personally don't know if I truly believe that inflation has no impact on my choices. I buy a lot of retro equipment.  Inflation doesn't end the habit, but it does slow it down.  It means fewer projects in a year, for certain.

I would pay $20 more for a product, probably, but buy less in a year.  Inflation is truly a big problem...hard to win that one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Astal4]

I for sure will not be allowing Lotharek to sell anything I design after reading this, and I'm very sorry to hear about this. I won't be buying any more from Lotherek as well, he is way out of line. I'd look for a different distributor and it's a shame that people have to get like this. The other thing that bothers me is when designers open source their project and then close source it after people start to clone it. Just keep designing cool shit! I sadly can't manufacture very much at all since my soldering equipment is all by hand and non automated, but maybe you could find an assembling service to do it for you and then sell it yourself?

[Matej]

As just Atari customer. I will pay extra 5euro or even 10euro on hardware You mentioned (its just price of coffee latte in hypermarket). Hope You will find way to get Your own assembly line working or You and Lotharek will find way to each other. You both guys are best what we have. I own lot of stuff from Candle (Ultimate 1mb, basically almost all upgrades designed by You) and also have best experience with @lotharek (lot of stuff, best mail packaging and good vibes on Forever party). There are also outsourcing assembly lines like PCBway. But new EU laws want pay extra % like 20% by import VAT - so rather I will pay extra 10euro than on VAT outside EU. Hope end of 2022 and 2023 will be 100% normal for usual people - pandemic over, peacetalks (sounds like crazy miracle but world and central Europe need it) also energy crissis, recession resolved. Hope extraterresterials or aliens will come not. @candle please talk to Him give each other one more chance to increase (5euro - 10euro plus extra) of Your products. I am from Slovakia near Poland and we have same wages (monthly salaries in PL like 1200euro/month) but I think that if I will pay for side3 or melody fm cart for example 110euro instead of 100euro everything will be OK (will not buy sweets, drink tea and coffee home for example). Maybe He can do as on Bandcamp or Etsy - base price + if You want also small extra for author its like 1 line code in PHP.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Matej

[lotharek]

It took me 12 hours to get calm after this post and actually didnt want to anwer, but cannot resist to share with all forum users my part of the case.

 

I have simple rule with every project i produce / sell, that are quite fair for both of sides:

• before introducing project to productions/sales there is always questions from my side: do You want to have share per unit sold or initial bigger payment. 
• No matter answer is given, i assume product becomes commercial. What does it mean for both sides of agreement:
  • no one else produces / sales the  particualar project
  • author/designer HELPS me with techchnical support; in case of need, improves device
  • author/designer doesnt publish sources of project; if he does my duty to pay shares immedietally is cancelled
  • amount of share is subject of a change in special cases / more about later/

 

Now, knowing above lets move on to:

 

 

Quote

 

As you may all know, there are severe shortages in semiconductor market, thus I was asked by Lotharek to redesign and cost-reduce Side3 cart so it would be more susteinable (many options for populating board) and cheaper to manufacture

• Jonathan and I spent several months doing this, and resolving all issues that were caused by this redesign.

 

 

Yes, that is true. Shortage of sram chips and lattice chips was a problem.  I have asked Candle, if we can replace some of the side3 project. 

 

 

Quote

 

Also, VHDL logic was extended so it would be both compatible with old hardware as with new.
I wanted to give something more to existing Side3 users so they could benefit from hardware they already own, expanding its capabilities to handle extended memory (up to 512kb) and PBI bios without pairing it with Ultimate1MB

Since Lattice MACHXO2 chip was not obtainable, lot of research went into getting another chip that would provide a drop-in replecement (with little to no board modifications) and this was also suceeded

 

 

Cannot deny that side3 was redesigned and new revision 3.1 is present.

 

 

 

Problem is one: 

 

Quote

lot of research went into getting another chip that would provide a drop-in replecement (with little to no board modifications) and this was also suceeded

 

13.07.2022, 00:32 mail from Sebastian to RUTRONIK: 

Quote

 

 

Panie Rafale,

 

Programator z amazona dał sobie rade i byłem w stanie zaprogramować GW1N-UV2LQ100XC6/I5 i potwierdzić jego przydatność w naszym projekcie - tutaj mamy już pewność

 

Pozostałych układów póki co nie mam, więc niewiele mogę powiedzieć

 

Sprawy finansowe, zamówienia - Przemek

 

 

 

in ENGLISH: we are sure gowin chips will work in SIDE3.1 

 

I have ordered 1000 gowin chips and made 5 piece of prototypes... and  here is fun: IT DOESNT WORK as LATTICE. It actually doesnt give desired stability.  Of course, I have proposed Candle extra money (2000 PLN) for adopting GOWIN. 

 

 

 

Quote

 

Considering the amount of time spent, and general level of income from royalities this project made, i've proposed to Lotharek to raise my fee from 8 to 12usd from every unit sold - we agreed on 8usd in 2019 and this was never increased
Official inflation in Poland is 17.2% right now, and expected to hit 20% with the end of the year

 

 

That is also true... but meanwhile SEBASTIAN sent mail to GOWIN that fpgas  bought by me  are not usable... and I have asked RUTRONIK to accept the return of the chips...  so, Candle`s " and this was also suceeded" is far from to be true. There is big inflation in Poland - that is also true.  

 

 

Real problem starts somewere else:

 

since march I was trying to obtain chips for new project TIKUS - smally mouse like usb interface. Price was agreed with mass buyer  and share with Candle. I divide income in 2 parts, one for Sebastioian, one for me.  

Suddenly, i get mail:

 

 

Quote

 

żeby mi się cokolwiek opłacało to muszę podnieść ceny

 

hydra mini/hydra 2 i pokrewne  - 50

side3 - 60

6502plus4 - 50

tikus - 50, przy zamówieniu powyżej 1000 - 15

spectre - 25

melody (dowolna wersja ) - 35

usb keyboard interface (pokey) - 25

incognito (v1) - 50

pla - 25

 

 

in short words: i want more money for projects you are selling now. if You do not pay more, i will stop doing anything. 

 

Of course, i could agree but that was not agreement.  As long i sell device, he will get his shares, but cannot be forced to rise his "salary" when i am hammered but USD/EURO exchange ratio, running company costs etc...

So, I DINT AGREE: 

 

Quote

 

niestety, nie zgadzam sie

nie rob nic

 

I do not agree, dont`t do anything, what means: cannot rise any salary of agreed projects, do not introduce anything new.

Alsko asked, what about chips I have spent almost 10K Euro and how much Candle wants for smally mouse v2 ? 

 

i can only say it was quote 8-10 times higher than hydra... which i cannot accept.. 40 TYS PLN !!!!!  NEW CAR ! 

 

Quote

odsprzedaż projektu w zależności od skomplikowania - np tikus 40tys

 

 

RESIME:

• products mentioned by Candle will be in my offer;
• Candle has no right to forbid me sending his commisions regulary what I do for many years back as none loylaity breach was noted
• Unfortunatelly, my attempts to call Candle were unsuccesful for last week, thus all regular aspects of my stock purchases and not finished business are just forwarded to my lawyer.
• I will be very happy to share official courts decisions 

 

I am sad, very sad only, when somebody You considered friend, doesnt pick your phone calls,  cannot discuss problems in men`s manner, leaves you with purchased goods ment for production in the middle of projects life. 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by lotharek

[candle]

Matej, I already did, he refused and is going to the court

there is very little I can do at this moment, especially when threatened with lawsuits and intimidated like this

Lotharek doesn't want to negotiate