cimerians Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Yup I see it too. Microsoft-like mass bannings begin just like on xbox live: http://www.destructoid.com/sony-releases-ps3-hack-statement-promises-mass-banning-194240.phtml Suprised the PS3 took a while to hack. Looks like all modern system are now hacked and companies are tracking gamer ID's (and quite possibly IP addesses in extreme cases) everywhere. Oh what fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax2069 Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 (edited) So the question is.. are everyone with a PSN account getting that email? Or just ones with jailbroken ps3's...? I have a Jailbroken PS3, but have not received the email. But then - I have not been on the PSN since I hacked it either. screw PSN, there are ways to play online (aka xlink kai and xbox connect), but the game used has to support system link/lan play to do this, it works quite well. PSN has never interested me,that's why i have a PSP running CFW for running homebrew and to carry all of my UMD games on memory stick for ease of use and longevity.here lately xbox live has been a turnoff as well, i am getting to the point where i am saying screw live as well. if you have a hacked PS3 use xlink kai or xbox connect to play online do not use PSN. if you want to use PSN don't hack the system. heck most PSP games are ad-hoc only so its a no brainier to use one of these services, its much like PSN ad-hoc party but using your computer and the client instead of the PS3. I would mod a PS3 before a 360 any day. http://forums.xbox.com/1386/ShowForum.aspx is a daily stop for me to catch a laugh. Edited February 17, 2011 by madmax2069 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underball Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 (edited) Double post. Stupid iPhone. Edited February 17, 2011 by Underball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underball Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Apparently it's just a blanket email, and Sony really has no idea who is hacked or not, other than people running modded games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 That's the problem. The hackers know the same key SONY does, so it's just a matter of who is more clever. If SONY changes things, and somebody doesn't catch it, they can know, and ban / brick the console. If not, then SONY won't know. It's always going to be possible to present as a valid client from here on out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cimerians Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 There's some more most likely false rumors of PSN getting hacked and credit cards possibly being exposed to them. So much for just wanting to play their console for emulation or discovery or whatnot. I say, if anyone uses a tool to perform illegal acts. (Moycons shooting people with a gun example. I bought a gun, now I can rob a bank cause the gun is MINE!!) I say the feds get involved and fry their hacker asses if they find them. They deserve a beating. I'd knock their teeth out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underball Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 There's some more most likely false rumors of PSN getting hacked and credit cards possibly being exposed to them. So much for just wanting to play their console for emulation or discovery or whatnot. I say, if anyone uses a tool to perform illegal acts. (Moycons shooting people with a gun example. I bought a gun, now I can rob a bank cause the gun is MINE!!) I say the feds get involved and fry their hacker asses if they find them. They deserve a beating. I'd knock their teeth out. Moycon's example doesn't really gel with anything anyone here has said about hacking the PS3 though. No one here has been advocating piracy or illegal activity. He's being hyperbolic because he doesn't really have a valid argument. and yeah - that stuff is bunk. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Exactly. And there is some serious debate about how just the current state of law really is. I don't think running machines on PSN is a good idea. That's a service, and it's got terms of use, etc... The people caught running on it are in the wrong, period. Of course that comes back to Disneyland vs The Wild West again. Truth is, I would love to be able to setup 'n run private servers. Used to do that with Q3A, and it was a very good online gaming experience. Could do custom maps, mods, or just run it clean and old school. Had a great DSL back then, and a old SGI box serving up about 40 players with a pretty solid ping all around. Of course, running on the local LAN gave me a nice boost, extra 10-20ms or so. One of the great perks about running servers outta the house. Generally, I'm not attracted by most of the online gaming experiences we've got open right now. The "crack" type games are OUT. Won't touch them. Would consider some of the sim type games, but honestly, I like it a bit more abstract. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) But in the total scheme of life, I'm not sure that any of us actually own anything. There are a coupla great points I want to respond to, and I'll have a bit of time here soon. That said, what I just quoted is worth some thought. Yes, absolutely. We don't really own our stuff a lot of the time. There is a careful balance here that is necessary so that we get the benefit of the machinery of society, in return for the incentive needed to get those who can build it to do so. This is not a bad thing. Just a necessary thing. So what does that mean? It means, we need to speak or be spoken for. Most of life is exactly that simple. Secondly, it means we need to make regular and consistent investments in ourselves and our kids, or those that do will call the shots, leaving those that don't exploited in ways that are likely to be oppressive and abusive. Think on that. Think on it really hard. It matters. There is a lot of time and money being spent to convince YOU that it doesn't matter, but it does, make no mistake. More later, but that was just worth tossing out there because it's relevant to this discussion, and your life in general. Sorry to get heady on these things, but... somebody has to. Seriously! I don't think it takes all that many either. Just enough to push back on it, and remind people of the way of things, and empower them to make choices they wouldn't otherwise know they even have to make. This is the politics of gaming, and to a large degree technology in general. Ignoring the politics of things means dealing with the authority of those that don't ignore the politics of things. And if somebody decides the politics of gaming ends up in the P&R forum, then open the door there for me to finish the discussion, or leave this thread here to run it's course. Thanks. Edited February 18, 2011 by potatohead 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mord Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 But in the total scheme of life, I'm not sure that any of us actually own anything. Yes, absolutely. We don't really own our stuff a lot of the time. There is a careful balance here that is necessary so that we get the benefit of the machinery of society, in return for the incentive needed to get those who can build it to do so. This is not a bad thing. Just a necessary thing. That would be more believable if the example that was quoted wasn't about innovation but instead bureaucracy going over the edge with the need to control everything for the sake of control. (I'm sure things like that started off with the intent to ensure safety, but then eventually became all about worrying about the overall property value which is something they really had no business doing imo.) Innovation has gone along just fine throughout human history without the need for draconian control over what the final customer may or may not do with what they've purchased. You can quote "oh it's all so much more complicated" these days, but they also have far more resources at their fingertips to automate and simplify their work as well. This is especially the case when most of the time they're just doing updates/upgrades on existing hardware and thus not starting from scratch. The control given to companies over what they may do to things they've already sold is not in any means "carefully controlled" but instead a constant grab for power using laws that they themselves have typically pushed into the law books with their lobbyists. This is especially true in the US. It's not a necessary thing and there is no balance. It will continue to fall further and further to one side. The only question is how fast. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 ...not necessary, and fall further to one side. Yeah. Hear that. At times, it's kind of depressing. But, the discussion is far from over, and there is a lot of different kinds of activity in the world, and some places are very favorable to one point of view, while others are open to other points of view. I continue to refuse to be jaded in that way, preferring to educate people, and myself and be fairly aggressive on playing whatever part I can as the story unfolds. A lot of this starts by simply informing ordinary people. A very large number of us really don't have any real exposure to these things, beyond the basic messages we are often given, and those are more directives than they are explanatory. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 (edited) I say the feds get involved and fry their hacker asses if they find them. They deserve a beating. I'd knock their teeth out. On public PSN, yeah. I don't think that's cool. That's a service, and it needs to be treated like any other service. Problem is, the big companies, and not just game companies, but big companies in general don't want to actually pursue many people, nor do they want to make investments necessary to divert them, and structure things in different ways to manage the problems. Offering private service licenses, or maybe just wan support would help a lot in this. Often it's fun to play game variations, and or explore the tech. Having a place to do that is important. I am 31 years old.My generation (in the western world at least) is the last that experienced the analog age. Lp discs, analog radio, monochrome tv, no internet, scarce telephones, big selling newspapers etc. ... Video games is what separates me and my parents generation. The way games change is what will separate me and the youths and teens from now on. This is very important to realize. Young people live in very different ways from us older people, depending on how willing we are to embrace what they are seeing, and whether or not we have some perspective that helps us see the macro scale of things. Macro is very important. It's the bigger picture, filtering out details, and more importantly, filtering out US, and just seeing things in aggregate. This is why I wrote what I did. A lot of people don't know what it is to come to learn things by opening them up, or they were not poor, or they just didn't have a walk in life that exposed them to some things needed to grok how this all can work. And how it can work is just as important as understanding how it IS working today. There is a lot of bias and a lot of money involved in this, and you can bet your ass, every bit of information you see and hear is structured to reinforce those basic norms that makes the money. Here's the ugly part. We all have a stake in this too. It's not all about the max money, but the right amounts of money, where we have a shot at living our lives and making choices. Not all of us will make those choices. In fact, surprisingly few will make the kinds of choices I have, for example. Not everybody needs to, or wants to. Sometimes we have to though. Think about that one for a bit. It's only important that we keep the door open. Those that will walk through take on some responsibility and some obligations, and it's up to them to see how they deal with it, and whether or not they end up in trouble. Another great analogy here is the systems administrator. A whole lot of the world runs because sysadmins make it run. They see things, know things, and can do things. Powerful things, often dangerous things --the kinds of things that can ruin lives, break careers and do a lot of damage. Somebody has to do it. Rather than persecute those that are curious and who have the skills to learn, we need to be taking steps to encourage it, mentor it, and build up the kind of people that we can trust to innovate for us, build for us, and sometimes just watch over us, making sure it all runs ok. I think that's probably the most interesting thing about this new interconnected time. My father in law recently passed away. We had a long talk before he went. It was about politics, life, technology and the stuff he saw and did. Sysadmins were some kind of futuristic enigma to him, as were computers and networks. The idea that ideas were owned to such a high degree was foreign too. He thought it was dangerous to have such power concentrated, and found it interesting how what people know could now compete with who people know. In his time, "hacking" was social engineering as we know it today, and reading books, having the right conversations, and just thinking through what one could see and hear and experience to see "between the lines". Is that so much different from what we see people do with their stuff? I don't think so, and I just wanted to close the loop on how and why this stuff actually matters. Without the smart people --the sysadmins, the hackers (not crackers, like that ass about to get bricked mentioned up thread), builders, tinkerers, etc... we basically hand the keys over to the big players, allowing them to become like lords, operating over their fiefdoms, with us serfs, the eoli, with them managing and dominating the morlocks, charting out the world on a boardroom wall. Sorry kids. I'm not down with that. Don't roll that way. Not cool at all. I like it much better when we get these kinds of people and they build Apple, or Google, rather than another SONY. One last observation, and I'll probably not chatter on this thread so much, content to see what others say: There are two kinds of sysadmins. The old-school sysadmin is mentored by another, existing sysadmin, who generally either learned at the school of hard knocks, or was mentored by somebody who actually built this stuff. That's the kind I became and still am today, and I'm about fourth generation. We had the talks about what having the keys to the kingdom really means, and the burden it puts on people, and the obligation to hold good character it all comes with. I remember reading the RFC's, learning the early history of the net and computing, and the people who were there had to build it right, and think macro, because it was brand new, and they did very, very well. Each generation forward, some of that gets diluted, lost, and revised. I'm touchy about this, because when I got on the net, I had somebody show me the ropes, and little stuff mattered a lot. When they let the AOL users on, it was just the masses stumbling around, making a mess. So we've got to look at our computing and networking history for the lessons and the values needed to insure that we get the same benefit we have so far, or we simply won't. You will notice that, and notice it big, and probably can already feel it, depending on what you do and what part of the world you live in. How do you answer simple things, like "can you delete this e-mail I sent, because it makes me look like a ass", to some other person asking, "can you tell me what Bob said last week to Joe?" That's not easy stuff, and frankly, it takes some balls to sort out, stand up, risk being canned so that the right things happen. Been there. Been canned once or twice too from somebody expecting a type two sysadmin. Of course, I sleep really well at night, and the users I happen to administer know they can call and get the truth as best as I understand it, and get treated well, like a doctor treats their patients. Computing / gaming is still very much the wild west, and you all know that was followed by the roaring 20's, which brought the great depression in the US. So this stuff can impact us like that, and it's worth more than "GO SONY!", because you like the game. Worth a lot more, which really was my underlying point here. The type two is one that is brought up by the corporate culture, takes the tests, knows it by the book, and basically does what the people who write the checks say, not the stuff that needs to happen for the systems to work as they should. We have a lot of what we have because the type ones built it with a macro view of things, not worried about any one little thing, but worried about how it was all going to play, and how it plays impacts lives, and futures and possibilities. You don't get type ones, unless we let people learn things, own things, and think the kinds of thoughts that lead to the discussion here. We need the type ones so we can keep the people paying the type twos in check, or it can and absolutely will get ugly. Count on it. Cheers all, it's Friday, and I'm gonna go watch some movies and write some code! Edited February 19, 2011 by potatohead 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Well shit. I was gonna more or less let this go, but I was catching up on game related econ news, and found this: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/33111/Nielsen_US_Gamer_Budgets_Shifting_To_Leisure_Activities_Mobile.php Entertainment competition right there. The firm pointed out that while entertainment budget share of video games decreased slightly, the actual amount of money spent on video games was nearly the same year-on-year. Entertainment dollars are more or less fixed. Just wanted to highlight the kinds of dynamics in play because of that. Share went down, but absolute dollars remained more or less stable, meaning overall price increased per sale. Interesting fact to keep a eye on as this all progresses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 http://geohot.com/ Tossed in $20 today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax2069 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) http://geohot.com/ Tossed in $20 today. I sent in $10, which is all i could do since i have no job. He is in need of more help then i will ever need. If i had a job i would send at least $50 a paycheck to him. Edited February 21, 2011 by madmax2069 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 (edited) Developers hate us as users, but they love our money. I thought about this a good long time. I don't think developers hate users in general. Most developer type people I know, both pro and not, enjoy the tech, the building, and they like seeing what they build get used, or just perform well, or get appreciated, just like every other morlock does. Creators, in general, create because they can, and because it makes them a living, and because they know other creators will create in like kind, generally improving the state of things over time. That said, nobody likes working for free, unless that was the intent. Some times it's altruistic, done for the gratification that comes with doing it, or because it must be done. Most times, it's done for some return, or to accomplish something. I do think many developers hate the expectation that people are entitled to things. The whole thing is a ecosystem, with no part independent of the other parts. Because of that, nobody really hates anybody. They just hate what some of the others do, and the general drive for that is when one part of the system leverages it's position for self serving reasons, at the expense of another part. Ever buy something that's designed to be bull shit? If you own a printer, for example, you've probably experienced that. Or a software license that's more draconian than it needs to be, just to make money. That stuff happens, and it happens regularly. On the flip side, ever write a program, or build something that somebody else copies, or abuses, or otherwise devalues? That's the kind of shit that sets people off, and it's usually driven by a lack of consideration or greed, or even simple ignorance. We all play roles in life. Some are users, owners, builders, administrators, and these roles vary. I develop things, build things, own things, and administrate things. When I'm in some other domain, maybe I'm just a user, or laborer. And that's the other part of this. Some of us don't get to experience the other roles, and that makes understanding what others do, why they do it difficult, and where that's true, bad things happen. Pretty hard to do the wrong things when you know the other party. It's almost as hard when you know what it is like for the other party. Empathy and personification are powerful things that not all of us can do. Lots of shit in this world because of that. And many won't like this, but the psychopath isn't capable of these things, and just does what they do for their own reasons. That is what makes them dangerous. When we don't understand other people, we are like the psychopath in many ways, potentially dangerous, because we don't know how to understand the impact of what we do, and where we don't understand that, there is no effective impact, and so we simply do what works for us. Very important to understand how this works. It explains a lot of things in life, not just this issue. The number one push back on that? Learning about the world and the people in it. Is it clear now, coming from this angle, why it's vital that we insure that people have the right to observe the world, learn, and share with others? Here on this site, we've got a great hobby that runs at the pleasure of those that own things. Here, we can write games for one another, share them, publish them in boxes and carts and basically get the whole experience! That's really cool! One can be a publisher, administrator, developer, player, and more! So no. Developers, for the most part barring some jaded ones that have been harmed or burnt out for whatever reason, don't hate users. They just hate the shit that comes with users, and that's just how the world is. Sugar and shit. If you have a bag of sugar with a little shit in it, that's otherwise known as "as good as it gets". Too much shit, and it's not sweet. There is always a little shit, and everybody wants it all sweet. That's Disneyland. It's expensive to be in Disneyland, so we deal with the shit, being careful to pick out the sweet parts and make the best of our lot in life. Developers, users, publishers are no different in this. We all are just people. Sorry for a long post, but I think the idea that "the others", depending on our station in life and overall abilities and understanding, are bad is just not productive. That builds norms and expectations that do more harm than good. I've been the developer who is grinning at some people enjoying the creation, and I've been the user sharing how cool the creation is. Both are really great things. Nobody hates anybody. They just hate what the clowns do. Edit: Honestly, I think the publishers and larger scale owners are more hated than anybody else, because they administer things, preventing everybody else from enjoying the stuff, and they administer for profit. That needs to happen, or there is no ecosystem, but it also is very easily abused. This is why I like retro and indie, because the people that create end up more closely connected to those that play and use, and that's always a good thing, because when we know one another, it's a lot harder to do the wrong things. When the scale of things is smaller, it's always more fun, always more personal, and IMHO, nearly always a higher value thing in general. Never did like big scale business, because it is overly constraining. Get that big, and things need to be cookie cutter just for practical reasons. The problem with this is people are not cookie cutter, and when they are empowered to act knowing one another, that's always more robust than just a set of rules designed to mostly get it right, with everybody knowing damn well it could be better. Edited February 23, 2011 by potatohead 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaperman Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 source German authorities and a sony representative entered the home of graf_chokolo and seized his PCs and PS3s. It seems sony is trying to stop a few individuals by tying them and their toys up in long, expensive court proceedings. Graf is the author of the PS3 HV (Hypervisor) Bible. Also in the news the ps3wiki is down after threats of legal action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2011/02/sonys-war-on-makers-hackers-and-innovators.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emehr Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2011/02/sonys-war-on-makers-hackers-and-innovators.html Excellent article I've been following this with casual interest for a while now. I don't own a PS3 nor do I have much interest in modern gaming in its current state. What I am interested in, however, is consumer rights. All of this legal action may end up helping Sony in the short run (I sure hope not) but it's the long term implications that have me horrified. In a few short years the PS3 will be long buried and Sony's interest in PS3 hacking will be nil but the precedents set by any lawsuits they win now will have everlasting effects on us, the consumers. I'm especially not cool with corporations guiding new laws and setting new precedents. Manipulating bytes on one's own property should not be a crime. I don't care what it "may enable". Nobody ever got physically injured from some bits changing state on the device they own. As far as a consumer's right to modify their own property, I've seen analogies from sawed-off shotguns to user-replacement of catalytic converters to try and defend Sony's actions. However, none of these analogies even fit since they are based on laws implemented to serve the general public and keep either them or the environment safe. Changing bit states on your digital product does not affect the general public. Nobody's eye will get put out. I'm more interested in what cool things can be done with new technology than I am in Sony's profits. The former has more long term advantages in terms of technical innovation that may lead to new products to serve the general public. The latter serves nobody except those with stock interests in Sony. Let's jump to the other side of the fence in Microsoft's playground. Now, what good would it do for Microsoft to start suing everybody that had a hand in these Kinect hacks? (Sorry for the disturbing still image, it's not my video ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho8KVOe_y08 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 That is e-ffing awesome! Good grief! The stupid shit people will do. Love it, and yes, that's exactly why we need to keep things open. Some little kid somewhere will get hold of that thing and do something really awesome. I want to see it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austin Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2011/02/sonys-war-on-makers-hackers-and-innovators.html That was an excellent read. Thank you for posting that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Remember when I wrote the question: "What if the owner of the lock abuses it?" Well, here you go: http://www.libraryjournal.com/lj/home/889452-264/harpercollins_caps_loans_on_ebook.html.csp This is why the right to observe the world, learn how it works, and use things you own, archive, etc... is important. We can find ways to get along, but only if it remains legal for the people to push back on digital abuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax2069 Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 (edited) http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2011/02/sonys-war-on-makers-hackers-and-innovators.html Let's jump to the other side of the fence in Microsoft's playground. Now, what good would it do for Microsoft to start suing everybody that had a hand in these Kinect hacks? (Sorry for the disturbing still image, it's not my video ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho8KVOe_y08 Microsoft is allowing people to do this with the kinect. Microsoft was going to go after these people but decided to embrace the innovations these people have done. And yes that is a very disturbing image. http://news.yahoo.com/s/digitaltrends/20110221/tc_digitaltrends/microsofttogivekinecthackersdevelopmentkits Edited February 26, 2011 by madmax2069 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Well, we can also phrase that as, "Microsoft decided to embrace independent efforts", because really the stuff was going to get done anyway, with the only real discussion being the easy way, or the hard way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax2069 Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 (edited) i don't know if this is BS or not but. It very well could be a bunch of FUD. http://www.iphonedownloadblog.com/2011/02/27/microsoft-donates-to-geohots-cause-against-sony/ Edited February 28, 2011 by madmax2069 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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