PS3 encryption keys now on the net

[Underball]

Something that cost less to produce, should cost less to buy.

 

Like for instance caviar, honey or gold?

Some things cost next to nothing to produce and still demand a high price.

Sorry your argument holds no water. It's all about supply and demand.

If a million people are willing to pay $60 for a new game who are you to say it's not worth it and if the price is what a person is concerned about, why can't they wait a few weeks till the price drops?

You really are pretty naive, aren't you? Gold cost nothing to produce? Is your apartment lined in gold? I mean - it costs nothing right?

 

As for your silly antagonistic "who are you to say" line - it's simple. I'm not saying that is what SHOULD be done. I'm offering it up as a suggestion to curb the piracy problem. It's an alternative to the current direction that clearly isn't working.

 

You and a few others here are whining about piracy as if video game pirates are rapists and murderers. The Hyperbole is just plain ridiculous. But no one here is really advocating piracy at all. Not one single person in this thread is saying stealing games is good, or encouraging anyone to. So you're trying to create an "argument" with some pretty entertainingly emotional sentiment, out of thin air.

 

The best way to fight piracy, is to give the pirates less reason to pirate games, Not more. Adding DRM, updating firmware with security patches, etc. - the hackers and pirates view this as a new challenge. Hacking is less about stealing, and more about figuring out how something works. It's about learning, and Hacking and Piracy aren't necessarily cohabitants. Sure, some hackers are pirates. Some Catholic Priests rape kids. Some people collect workers compensation when they aren't injured. Some people do shady shit, because they can get away with it. but you'll have a hard time proving Hackers = Pirates to anyone with half a brain in their head.

 

but hey - if you come across some free gold, or a case of caviar lying around - let me know.

[moycon]

You really are pretty naive, aren't you? Gold cost nothing to produce? Is your apartment lined in gold? I mean - it costs nothing right?

 

No gold cost a lot to buy, that was my point. All the examples I gave are produced by nature. Maybe there is cost obtaining the product, but like for instance honey (which can be pretty expensive, I paid $6.00 for a 4 oz jar because it was local honey and that's what I wanted, I'm not going to figure out what that would come to per gallon, but you can bet it's more than say...milk) bee's produce honey. I'm not being naive, that really is where honey comes from.

 

Take caviar. I spent $6.99 for 2 oz at Kroger and it was good stuff. I spread on a thin layer of cream cheese and then a thin layer of caviar, if you haven't ever had it, you should try it. This past Christmas, I splurged and bought some caviar from a website that was $80 for 2oz, it was pretty good also, but honestly it wasn't so much better that I'd go out of my way for it. So are you telling me because of that I should just steal $80 caviar in the future? I don't think it's much better so that gives me the right to do what I want? No, I'll just buy the $6.99 caviar. potatohead called it, for every $60 game, there are a dozen more available for less. Most indie games are a buck.

 

Look it doesn't matter how well thought out, written or long the response is. No one here is going to justify to me that they have the right to pirate the latest video games or that they are forced to pirate. We're aren't taking about something that you need to survive. If you were stealing because you needed say...food, maybe I'd see your point.

 

As far as free cases of gold or caviar, just go take it, what do you care? You're the one trying to argue it's ok, not me.

[Underball]

You really are pretty naive, aren't you? Gold cost nothing to produce? Is your apartment lined in gold? I mean - it costs nothing right?

 

No gold cost a lot to buy, that was my point. All the examples I gave are produced by nature. Maybe there is cost obtaining the product, but like for instance honey (which can be pretty expensive, I paid $6.00 for a 4 oz jar because it was local honey and that's what I wanted, I'm not going to figure out what that would come to per gallon, but you can bet it's more than say...milk) bee's produce honey. I'm not being naive, that really is where honey comes from.

 

Take caviar. I spent $6.99 for 2 oz at Kroger and it was good stuff. I spread on a thin layer of cream cheese and then a thin layer of caviar, if you haven't ever had it, you should try it. This past Christmas, I splurged and bought some caviar from a website that was $80 for 2oz, it was pretty good also, but honestly it wasn't so much better that I'd go out of my way for it. So are you telling me because of that I should just steal $80 caviar in the future? I don't think it's much better so that gives me the right to do what I want? No, I'll just buy the $6.99 caviar. potatohead called it, for every $60 game, there are a dozen more available for less. Most indie games are a buck.

 

Look it doesn't matter how well thought out, written or long the response is. No one here is going to justify to me that they have the right to pirate the latest video games or that they are forced to pirate. We're aren't taking about something that you need to survive. If you were stealing because you needed say...food, maybe I'd see your point.

 

As far as free cases of gold or caviar, just go take it, what do you care? You're the one trying to argue it's ok, not me.

They EXIST in nature, in scarce quantites (except Honey). They are not "produced" by nature. As for their value to humans, the production costs to refine them into a viable product (trade-able gold, & packaged, edible caviar) are still extremely high.

 

And you can read the posts above yours here again if you so choose to. I would suggest that you need to, as you have a tendency to put words into the mouths of people who aren't really out to get you.

 

Not one single person in this thread has tried to "justify piracy" in any way, shape, or form. Not in any post. NONE.

 

A number of people are discussing the fact that it DOES happen, and there are many ways to try and prevent it or at least limit it. You've just taken this simpletonesque black & white view that anyone who doesn't stamp their feet like a 4 year old in Toys R Us over "pirates is bads OKAY!!!" then they must be supporting piracy. You're just digging this hole deeper.

[moycon]

Not one single person in this thread has tried to "justify piracy" in any way, shape, or form. Not in any post. NONE.

 

Ok

 

Still I'm just pointing out all your "reasons" for piracy existing aren't necessarily valid, I already know several people agree because they've told me, and really just the fact that the latest video games sell and are big business suggests many others would agree. Seems fair enough. Maybe people CAN convince themselves they have a valid reason. I dunno.

 

Is it ok to speak my mind or is that something you personally have a HUGE issue with? I ask because for all the accusing you direct towards me, I'm personally attack you, I'm naive, I'm seething mad and need to breathe (a classic), I'm trolling ,etc... it really seems like you're the one with a problem when I add in my 2 cents. Go figure.

[Underball]

Not one single person in this thread has tried to "justify piracy" in any way, shape, or form. Not in any post. NONE.

 

Ok

 

Still I'm just pointing out your "reason" for piracy existing aren't necessarily valid, I already know several people agree because they've told me, and really just the fact that the latest video games sell and are big business suggests many others would agree. Seem fair enough.

Is it ok to speak my mind or is that something you personally have a HUGE issue with? I ask because for all the accusing you direct towards me, I'm personally attack you, I'm naive, I'm seething mad and need to breathe (a classic), I'm trolling ,etc... it really seems like you're the one with a problem when I add in my 2 cents. Go figure.

Speak your mind all you want. You are entitled to your opinion, as am I, and everyone else here.

 

Just don't put words in people's mouths, or try to make weak strawman arguments out of thin air to justify your opinion as if it were fact, that's all. You were clearly trying to indicate that myself and others here are condoning, or attempting to "justify" piracy. And only when you were called on it, did you relent.

 

That, coupled with the fact that nearly every single one of your posts in this thread has been a direct (quoted) or indirect swipe at me is why I am making pointed opinions here about you. Go back and read it all again if you need to. Almost every single post you've made, barring a few that happened over the weekend while I was away from the internets, was a direct or at least related reaction to something I said a post or two earlier.

 

You have strong opinions on the subject of piracy. That's fine. It is an important issue for today's avid gamer. It's when you automatically expect everyone to toe the line on your opinion, and try to belittle people who might view things from a slightly different viewpoint that people might take exception to your posts.

 

It's one thing to do it in a sarcastic, joking manner. You don't seem too humorous here on this subject. You seem demonstrably upset about the effect of piracy and hacking on your gaming experience. That's kind of hard to really relate to for me, because it's just entertainment. I do it for fun. It's a tiny percentage of my life. Gaming is not going to go away for good just because some guys learned how to make homebrew, or copy a few games. It may make Sony paranoid enough to make usage stricter, but this has been going on for nearly 2 decades now in video gaming on most platforms, to varying degrees. If anything, the industry is larger and stronger now than it has ever been.

 

I guess all I'm saying is just put down the gamepad for 10 minutes and look at the bigger picture. Sure, in the moment it might suck that your trophies or save games from MW2 (or whatever game) got fucked up by some asshole hacker or pirate. So what? That means you get to play through a great game all over again, right? And if it wasn't that great that you don't want to play through it again, then maybe it wasn't really worth $60 in the first place.

[moycon]

Speak your mind all you want. You are entitled to your opinion, as am I, and everyone else here.

 

Cool thanks.

 

Now, can you stop swearing and telling me I'm naive and that I'm trolling and that I'm attacking you personally and criticizing me and making incorrect assumptions and posting them as fact when I do it or is that too much to ask?

 

Seriously though...and I already mentioned this, I'm not that upset.

[Underball]

Speak your mind all you want. You are entitled to your opinion, as am I, and everyone else here.

 

Cool thanks.

 

Now, can you stop swearing and telling me I'm naive and that I'm trolling and that I'm attacking you personally and criticizing me and making incorrect assumptions and posting them as fact when I do it or is that too much to ask?

 

Seriously though...and I already mentioned this, I'm not that upset.

 

Sure.

 

As soon as you stop posting naive opinions, that are discounted by several people, while countering every single post I make with veiled insults, and putting words in my mouth. You stop doing those things, and I'll stop asking you to stop doing those things.

 

Ok?

 

Although, no, I will not stop swearing. You're just going to have wash your eyes out with soap, or whatever.

[potatohead]

Well, here's the truth on piracy.

 

If people OWN their stuff, piracy is possible. End of story, that's reality.

 

If they don't OWN their stuff, piracy is still possible, though less of a issue, depending on what the rental tech looks like, and the subscription details.

 

The only way piracy isn't possible, is if there is nothing to pirate.

 

Nobody wants that.

 

So then, the reality is people will pirate. Some will do it out of simple greed, and I personally think that kind of sucks. Others will do it to learn, or to modify, or re-purpose.

 

I'm gonna do it with SSX the minute it's possible. I paid, and I like the game, it's not been reissued or trans-coded for me, and it's growing difficult to play otherwise. Sorry kids, that's fair. No moral or ethical dilemma there at all.

 

So then the real game is not to blame everything on piracy. That's not realistic, and it's what happens a LOT of the time. Same for hacking, though I think the dynamics of that are somewhat different, but let's just focus on piracy for a moment longer, before taking on hacking.

 

Backups? Hell yes I make backups. Want to know why? Because the shit is expensive, end of story. And I get to do that when I own my stuff. No moral or ethical issue there either. Now, if replacement media for losses were available, or rental scenarios were sane, I wouldn't care, because I would either be on the rental plan, where they make sure I can play, or I could obtain replacement media for losses or wear at a nominal cost.

 

Without those things, I'm making backups, because I am forced to own them, because there is no real alternative that makes sense right now, and they are very aggressive about restricting the benefits of ownership, seriously diluting the value of things. Fickle, complex hardware devices don't help much here either.

 

Now, a extremist who is anti-piracy, and probably somewhat authoritarian, would classify those as bad things. The other view is they are necessary things, and acceptable, "fair" things to do. Clearly, I'm on the side of fairly reasonable fair uses and protections and use of media investments, movies, music, games, programs, and I take steps to insure that I see the value of my investment, just as they do to dilute it and make the most from the ones they make too.

 

Welcome to the world of checks and balances and it's all a lovely shade of grey, just the way your average geek likes it.

 

So then with those dynamics in place, the game is growing the revenue in ways that discourage piracy, and that demonstrate very solid value for the dollar.

 

Most of the discussion surrounds simply eliminating piracy, WITHOUT actually having the value for dollar discussion, nor the alternatives and choices needed to get people to do the right things more than the wrong ones, and make no mistake, unless we want a completely closed, totalitarian scene, the game is all about getting people to make more right choices than wrong ones.

 

There isn't a lot of political will in gaming, and other media circles to come to acceptance on that, and until there is, they've really not a whole lot to say about the problem of piracy, particularly given they exaggerate the "losses" often presenting ALL instances of piracy as "lost" revenue, or some opportunity cost, when it's clear the body of entertainment dollars does not support their revenue expectations at this time, because gaming and media in general competes with other forms of entertainment, and for most people, most of the time entertainment dollars are a fixed thing.

 

Serious growth in some forms of entertainment will have a very real impact on other forms, and that's just not discussed very often, and it should be, along with the many other elements to this ignored far too often.

[Underball]

 

Most of the discussion surrounds simply eliminating piracy, WITHOUT actually having the value for dollar discussion, nor the alternatives and choices needed to get people to do the right things more than the wrong ones, and make no mistake, unless we want a completely closed, totalitarian scene, the game is all about getting people to make more right choices than wrong ones.

You and I both have tried to introduce this topic here, but unfortunately to little avail.

 

I fear at least on this board - which is rife with "collectors" who place aged video game trinkets in hermetically sealed packages, and price-gouge the shit out of OCD people on a nostalgia kick with money to burn - that the idea of lobbying for a lower basic price point (and ultimately a lower investement value) for games will go unheard, or worse - scoffed at by those protecting their investments/side business market.

[potatohead]

Rather than make it personal, I prefer to just put the issue out there with good advocacy.

 

In the end, gaming will experience exactly what music did.

[Underball]

Rather than make it personal, I prefer to just put the issue out there with good advocacy.

 

In the end, gaming will experience exactly what music did.

See - now that would be truly odd. The music industry has moved to downloads, and a larger focus on Live Music/concert merchandise.

 

Does this mean that Arcades might make a comeback? I'd love it. I miss the fact that there no longer is a higher tier of video gaming in the arcades that sets the standard by which all console games are made.

 

but then, that's not really feasible with all these games that feature 25 minute FMV/animation intros and convoluted plotlines.

[potatohead]

Maybe...

 

What I mean is the business models will change and adapt to the tech changes and social changes, just like they did with music. Either the major players will do it, or others will do it, but it absolutely will happen.

 

...which is why I prefer to push for a high value for dollar position, and one where there is robust competition. In that scenario, we win, and the dynamics will be satisfactory.

 

There are lots of options. It's just a matter of time before they get tried, and whether or not a sufficient number of people buy the standard big corporate line. I won't be one of them, and encourage others to do the same. That's all that can be done.

[cimerians]

My final opinions:

 

- No reason to hack a PS3 at the moment. I've invested a ton into it and dont feel like messing with it or my online status. Other options for me are better and cheaper for emulations and backups etc. (ie. Wii\Dreamcast\Xbox)

 

- Piracy is stealing. Pure and simple. If I grab a copy of Dragon Quest 9 for my Nintendo DS Acekard or torrent a PS2 game and dump it on hy PS2 hard drive. It means I stole two games that I have not paid for in any shape or form to use.

 

- Is DRM caused by pirating? Of course it is. Maybe not all of it but that's one reason DRM is there. Its just a fact jack.

 

- Games ARE expensive in my opinion but thats up to the individual to decide. If money is no issue or if the game is something you love it doesnt really matter to me. To expand on that:

 

I usually rate my games in relation to the standard pricing model being used to take our money. $50-60 for new releases on ALL new games right? (Except handheld games). I love God of War, Mario Galaxy and anything Bioware and Bethesda releases. That means I dont mind paying 60 bucks for those games. I love them to death it doesnt matter, I want to give them 60 bucks. They deserve it. (Not that it all goes to the devs though )

 

Other games I buy in that price range and are NOT good makes me feel that I just got ripped off.

 

A good example is I recently ripped Epic Mickey a bit because I paid 50 bucks for it. I paid the same price for Mario Galaxy and to me Mario Galaxy is by far a better game. I said, "Epic Mickey isnt worth the 50 bucks." I should have waited and payed 20 or 30 bucks for it. In other words: It better be a good game for the price point because there tons of better\comparable games out there. Publishers listen up!!

 

Unfortunate we get bad games a lot. Is it right to then steal them or maybe wait till prices drop?

 

Ok I'm done. Now I need to look for a copy of Dragon Quest 9...my NDS file is corrupt......anyone know of some good newsgroups?

[potatohead]

Well, let's flip a few of those around!

 

Agreed on the hack, unless one is on their own server, which I don't know is possible. On private servers, game on!

 

As stated above, Piracy is infringement. I'm right on this, and you are not. You can easily say it's LIKE STEALING, but it isn't theft. That's a different thing. We will get increasingly shitty laws about this stuff, until the majority of people get it right. And yes, I'm right about that too.

 

And infringement is bad, except for when it makes sense, which is why this whole discussion is more complex than piracy is bad.

 

Is pirating / hacks caused by DRM? Damn right they are. The two go hand in hand to fuck people over. You see, a totalitarian approach to DRM means nobody owns their hardware. Not ok. On the flip side, being able to copy and use things freely isn't good either. Balances must be struck. For every instance of piracy seen out there, I can very easily find companies being abusive with DRM, costing people money just the same as they say piracy costs them money.

 

BOTH ARE TRUE. Remember the shades of grey above?

 

How would you like to rent your consoles and games? That's what DRM is in the end, if you follow it out to the extreme. I'm not ok with that.

 

(and I don't buy a lot attached to shitty DRM either, and I don't pirate, preferring to find alternatives)

 

Agreed on individual choice, which is why I wrote the stuff about good value for the dollar. Without significant and regular push back on what that value is, the default will be the highest price for the lowest value. I'm a capitalist, and don't appreciate it working that way.

 

So, lots of competition, lots of pricing options, low barrier to entry for gamers to find potential games to play, and that means owning my console so I can play those offerings created for it --all of them, not just the ones published by the major houses.

 

Is it ok to infringe until prices go down, or until good ones are found?

 

I don't think so.

 

If they want $60, they better give me some great options to educate myself about the product, or I'll simply not buy, or buy used, or buy something else, or swap with friends.

 

Nobody here is seriously defending the asses that collect gigs of games. But, all is not rosy on the console side of the house, with Sony in particular being downright shitty on a number of fronts.

 

And we hear all about how used games are bad because they are a revenue loss? Swapping with friends is worse?

 

This is why I do the swap with 6 friends, trading titles, to reach $10 a title. If DRM prevents that, well? Maybe it's worth $20 then tops. See how that works?

 

Seems to me, given you play emulation and backups on DC, the PS3, at some point would be a nice upgrade. Isn't it nice to OWN your console?

 

[madmax2069]

I make backups of most of my games/software i own (if its possible to do). i have had so many disks get ruined by either dropping them or the system scratches the disk to hell and they become unusable. some you can hardly find any more some are two expensive to re buy over again.

 

i use the backups for my personal use only (if i was for some reason to sell the original game i break the copy in half), i play the backups and leave the original version in its case, all of my PSP games are on a memory stick for ease of use and for longevity, all my DC games are backed up for longevity, thanks to my gameshark pro i made backups of my N64 games. haven't touched my 360 due to the fact you will get banned for using a modded xbox on live, haven't backed up my gamecube games because i do not have a modded gamecube. My PC games are either backed up or available on steam.

 

Never have i downloaded a game off the net that i do not own a official copy of if its not open sourced, i do download if its freely available from the copyright owners or made into open source.

[Petran79]

I remember as a kid i was jealous on the teen amiga players who had most of their games pirated while i had to pay a fortune for my nes games (atari2600 games werent cheap either). Pc gamers also pirated a lot of games. A few years later nes prices dropped at 2/3rds with rereleases with different covers so i bought a few games

If i had the choice back then as a kid i would have gotten some games for free. As an alternative i exchanged games with friends.

Well my nes and atari were sold 18 years ago, so much money spent but not wasted. If my nes games were pirate copies i would have enjoyed them too as a kid. Though i would not know it was illegal (what is that file called 'crack.exe'?)

 

Piracy is something i learnt about much later and certainly not as a teen.

[potatohead]

I knew about it early on. The school had Apple ][ computers, and of course there was just a ton of copied stuff.

 

The real fun was cracking one, and that's what a few of us did. Ultima II and a CoCo game or two were the first, and those CoCo games were difficult!! 6809 and all it's addressing modes made it really super easy to hide some writes to ROM. Learned a ton though. And no, those were not distributed beyond a good friend and I banging at our 8 bit computers, mostly writing tools and collecting data sheets and any other technical thing we could find.

 

Cracking that CoCo game meant OWNING the 6809. To hell with the game. It kind of sucked

 

Still do a little of that today. Much harder, but often still possible. When one pays several thousand dollars for some application, a backup is absolutely called for Usually that can be accomplished at the OS / System level now, allowing the app to be virtualized, if they don't permit it otherwise.

 

Here's something very interesting. Back then, there were a few kinds of people. Some were just users. They could operate the computer and would, given materials to use. Others were tinkerers, and that was me and a coupla friends. And then there were copiers, little more than users, but they loved collecting hordes of stuff!

 

Both the tinkerers and copiers had a "would share freely" and "wouldn't share, maybe trade" variant. The share freely folks were generally interested in how things worked, not so much the using of those things, and the won't share crowd was all about how much they had access to, and the dealings around that.

 

I think that's still largely true today.

 

Most of the won't share folks lost touch. I don't know many of them, though I do know plenty of the users. The tinkerers who would share stayed connected somewhat too, and most of them got computer related jobs --technical or administrative.

 

I can still send a note over, almost unchanged from school, "WTF??" and get a answer along with the current state of their fam.

 

The point I'm trying to make here is that the right to learn how things work is intertwined with actually owning those things. It's not about ripping the latest games, or hordes of them. It's just about ownership, self-sufficiency, etc...

 

DRM threatens a lot. Truth is, I know a ton about machines that I learned by opening them up and examining what I found inside. Pays well today, and I don't break any laws. (well, no significant laws) Had I grown up in a DRM land, things would be very different, and so that matters on a level beneath just playing games or what is worth what.

 

Those that write the games know about this. Nearly every one of them has been there, and a lot of them picked up the career early on and just kept on doing what they do. Could have been me, or any of my peer group back then. I chose manufacturing, because I'm damn good at making things, making them right, making a lot of them, and making them all the same. Bad call in the US, LOL!!! Good thing I did have the computer skills and could map over to them like I did. Would be ugly without that early learning in place.

 

That's threatened as much as anything else is with DRM and the idea that we don't own our devices.

 

Food for thought, that's all.

Edited February 15, 2011 by potatohead

[potatohead]

Dammit! Double post.

 

Well, I was going to go for a edit, so I'll put it here.

 

In the US, and in other parts of the world stupid enough to buy into our politics, it's not a crime to open the box up and learn stuff, only to share what you found. That's what Geohot did. He shared what he did the work to learn, while masses of people abusing that run free. Not cool. We've a social problem here as much as a technical one. In fact, it's more of a social problem than a technical one, because throughout the history of computing, absolutely nothing has stood the geek test. Nothing.

 

Put enough geeks on something, and it will be opened up. Fact. So, we've gotta deal with that, not symbolically cut off the heads of the geeks, like they did in the dark ages when somebody figured something out that threatened some self-serving order or other. Make no mistake, that's exactly what is going on here too. Not literally, figuratively, for those reading challenged people out there.

 

This assault on owning things offends people like me just as deeply as massive piracy does most people. And blatant, self-serving piracy is offensive to me, not that I care so much about people running something they haven't been licensed for, particularly when they have a solid reason. Unbridled greed in this is not OK at all though.

 

But I do care about the right to learn and share being threatened.

 

Hell, I make my living based on what I learned and grew up a very poor kid, which made college tough to do. Did go, but it wasn't until I busted my chops and earned enough to get in.

 

Often, these days, a application is required for employment. Was in the late 80's too. Got into CAD that way, and you know I didn't pay 3K to get some skills, though I did recommend that product and purchased it for several companies after gaining entry to the career field. Let's just say I gave back and call it good. I know WAY too many people who did, and or are currently doing the same thing.

 

It's easier now, because student / trial versions are a option, but not always. There is your infringing is bad, unless it makes sense right there. Don't know how to resolve that one, only that I've no regrets, and I know absolutely those acts paid off for me and the developers big. No harm, no foul, and I've met one or two of those guys over a smoke and a meal, both of us laughing at how fucked up things are sometimes.

 

Bottom line here is locking everybody out means locking out the good people who build shit and give back, as well as the bad people who are more self-serving and abusive than not. We don't do that in other areas of society, generally speaking, so why this one?

 

So it's more than the black and white so often presented, and anybody with any experience and self-respect enough to be honest about things will tell you something along the lines of what I just did.

Edited February 15, 2011 by potatohead

[moycon]

Bottom line here is locking everybody out means locking out the good people who build shit and give back, as well as the bad people who are more self-serving and abusive than not. We don't do that in other areas of society, generally speaking, so why this one?

 

I don't think the majority of the millions of people who purchase a video game system care about anything other than the good people who design and produce the latest video games for them to enjoy is the reason most people have a problem with hackers. What happens to consoles when the newest system is released? The majority of those old systems wind up in storage, pawn shops, trashed or in the hands of people that want to screw around with old tech. It's obvious many people here, that is the small group that does have an interest in hacking only to play older games, or play a home brew game (which can be done right now on the latest system without hacking) could care less if even the righteous hackers were locked out right now. Maybe five years from now when the PS3 is a dead or next to dead system, a lot of us wouldn't care. Right now they are just a pain in the majority of people's ass, causing a bunch of unnecessary BS for legit gamers.

[potatohead]

Well, it's not important that people care, only that they can care, if they desire to.

 

That's the ownership issue.

 

As for "legit" gamers... know this: It's the people like me, who are aggressive on the right to learn, own, do, build who make the whole works possible in the first place. Not me personally, just in general.

 

Break that circle, and a lot of things will happen that you, and the other "legit" gamers will find highly undesirable. Fact.

 

It's awfully easy to just blame "those other people" in this world. It's a lot harder to evaluate the problems and realize solutions that everyone can live with.

 

And I think advocating for the people that want to learn, build, do, explore is every bit as valid as advocacy for the people who just want to enjoy the product of those efforts. Arguably, one doesn't happen without the other, and that's worth more than a little passing thought.

 

Finally, the idea that everyone enjoys equal protection under the law, at least here in the US, demands that my point of view carry as much weight as yours does, the numbers be dammed. So I won't be taking any "it doesn't matter" kind of shit on this topic at all.

 

Cheers!

Edited February 15, 2011 by potatohead

[moycon]

Close that circle, and a lot of things will happen that you, and the other "legit" gamers will find highly undesirable. Fact.

 

This is what I don't get. What repercussions are there that most people would care about?

Something that would really affect their lives.

If a console could never be hacked, you couldn't play emulators on them, you couldn't back up anything associated with them, you couldn't play a game someone made themselves at home on them.

Nothing but play the latest games designed for that system. Do you think consoles would just stop selling?

I don't. There are so many alternatives, for the handful of folks that did care to do those things.

 

I say even if you close the circle, so what?

 

So if you wanted to play emulators, you would have to put up with older systems and their cables, or maybe a PC. Is that a deal breaker for buying a new console for most people...I doubt it. Do you think ruining a game disk and wanting to play it 10 years later, but refusing to pay the $10 for a used copy on eBay or playing the game emulated on their PC is something most people consider when purchasing a game system? Again seems far fetched. Most people on AA have been gaming since the 80's, I wonder if you started a poll asking how many people here have been profoundly affected by games that stopped working what the response would be. Also do you think when buying a game system, people are mainly concerned with the ability to play hackers home brew games? (Keeping in mind the fact they already can play legit ones) I just don't see it.

 

Name one undesirable thing that would happen to me as a gamer if going forward a console couldn't be hacked and yes please make sure it a fact, because honestly, I don't think you can. Nothing people have mentioned so far, ugly cables, not having the ability to backup, losing physical media, angry wives, not being able to play games from older systems would stop most "legit" gamers from buying that non-hackable console anyways. You're talking like a non-hackable console is a terrible worthless thing. Maybe for you it is. I think you'll find the majority of gamers don't consider it twice when making a purchase, and think hackers in fact suck. At the end of the day I personally would rather stop them from screwing with my entertainment (evil hackers) more than have some convenient perks (righteous hackers).

 

Maybe I'm wrong though. Maybe that is a deal breaker for most people, maybe never being able to hack a game console would in fact completely ruin someones entertainment and I just don't see it.

[Mendon]

I wasn't going to get into a debate on piracy/jailbreak, but I want to post a couple of my own thoughts.....

 

Infringing vs stealing: a dictionary defines stealing as "to take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it". This definition doesn't restrict the liability of stealing to physical property as it could very well be intellectual property.

 

I believe that Moycon, Cimerians, Madmax2069, and myself are breaking this down to its simplest, basic term: right & wrong; morality. If an item is being sold, and you take that item without the consent of its owner or meeting his/her terms (either by paying for the item or being given the item free of charge), you are stealing. And that's wrong, plain and simple. Doesn't matter if the item is overpriced, easily manufactured, is a necessity or luxury, or whatever.... if you are not entitled to have it in your possession, then its stealing.

 

Potatohead is right in regards to software, in that this is actually referred to as "Copyright Infringement", not "Copyright Stealing". But in our discussion here in this thread, that's like differentiating between me breaking into a liquor store with or without a gun, i.e. robbery or armed robbery. The end is the same: I'm stealing, I'm breaking the law, I'm wrong.

 

 

Games are overpriced: I don't believe lowing the price of a game will have much effect as to whether there is piracy/stealing. An example: Pixel Junk released a UMD version of one of its games, Pixel Junk Monsters Deluxe on the PSP for $20. A great game at a great price. But soon after release, Pixel Junk noticed that there were more people playing the game online than copies of the game had been sold. Pixel Junk's response: they may never release another game on the PSP or even on media.

 

Lowering the price of a Lexus to $5,000 will have little effect on car theft, just like lowering the price of media software to $10 or $20 will have little effect on piracy. Some people want FREE, no matter what.

 

If $60 a game is too high, especially when you're not sure if the game is worth it, don't Torrent the game, join GameFly!

 

 

PS3 Jailbreak: If GeoHot and his team took it upon themselves, as a challenge to their skills, to break the PS3 encryption, then that's fine. No problem I can see at all.

 

But the minute GeoHot and his team publicly released that Jailbreak, they were wrong, wrong, wrong.

 

I don't believe for a minute that GeoHot thought of himself as Robin Hood, giving to the poor PS3 owners the ability to install Linux on their console. They knew exactly what they were doing and what some of the ramifications would be. And a Google search to see the number of businesses that have sprung up selling PS3 Jailbreak devices for $20 and up is a sign of this.

 

You want to mod your own Wii console to have the Homebrew Channel for indie games or DVD play capability or emulation, then fine, no problem. You want to mod your own PS3 to run Linux or back up your Blu-ray disks to the hard drive, then fine, no problem. You want to hack a piece of software you legally possess to see what makes it tick and/or change your own PERESONAL game experience, then fine, no problem.

 

But when you take your mods/hacks public and mess with my gaming enjoyment, I have a BIG problem.

 

The old cliche "the more, the merrier" isn't always appropriate. As I said, anyone can now use the jailbreak, no matter their technical skills.

This means more people playing around with hacks and piracy.

This means more people hacking online games and disrupting the gameplay of non-hackers.

This means more "sanctions" from the software and hardware companies to protect profit.

This could mean less software titles for gamers to choose from.

This could mean an end to media software.

This could mean ramifications that none of use are aware of yet.

 

I view this as no different than living in an apartment.... yes, you have the right to listen to music and/or play your television. But when the sound level you project interferes with the neighbor's enjoyment of life, now there is a big problem.

 

My condensed viewpoint: I don't screw around with your gaming experience, PLEASE don't screw around with mine.

 

 

Mendon

[Reaperman]

I guess we should open up a new thread on ps3 hacking because this one's shot to hell.

[Underball]

PS3 Jailbreak: If GeoHot and his team took it upon themselves, as a challenge to their skills, to break the PS3 encryption, then that's fine. No problem I can see at all.

 

But the minute GeoHot and his team publicly released that Jailbreak, they were wrong, wrong, wrong.

and this is where we part company, morally speaking.

 

What Geohot and team FailOverFlow did was to release the information contained in the product you already own, publically, for free. You already own it. You're not stealing anything.

 

Before this, there were already unscrupulous small-time tech companies SELLING the same jailbreak tools FOR PROFIT, in the form of a USB dongle. THAT is infringement. Simply reading the contents of a book is not infringement. Re-posting that book's contents, and charging readers for it without the owners/publisher's consent is infringement.

 

This doesn't make what Geo, etc. did "right" per se, but what it did was take the THEFT for PROFIT angle out of the hacking scene, and gave it back to genuine hackers.

 

and there is already legal precedence that backs up their actions:

 

Look up the iPhone jailbreaking case Judge's determination. (hint: Apple didn't win, because the jailbreaking tools released weren't a for-profit venture)

[moycon]

I guess we should open up a new thread on ps3 hacking because this one's shot to hell.

 

Maybe you should just frequent a hackers forum? The threads about hacking on there would be right up your alley I'll bet.

You're actually not allowed to start threads about hacking on AA, unless like Underball pointed out you just want to discuss hacking in general, which is what is being done, and that includes all sides of it.

Just suck it up.