PS3 encryption keys now on the net

[Underball]

I guess we should open up a new thread on ps3 hacking because this one's shot to hell.

 

Maybe you should just frequent a hackers forum? The threads about hacking on there would be right up your alley I'll bet.

You're actually not allowed to start threads about hacking on AA, unless like Underball pointed out you just want to discuss hacking in general, which is what is being done, and that includes all sides of it.

Just suck it up.

Such an adult manner on this one.

 

You just can't stop thinking/posting about me. I would say I'm flattered, but I'd be lying. You're creeping me out.

[moycon]

This post is hidden because you have chosen to ignore posts by Underball

 

 

Sweet!! It really does work.

[Underball]

This post is hidden because you have chosen to ignore posts by Underball

 

 

Sweet!! It really does work.

I bet you won't last 2 days before you start trolling my on-topic posts again.

[Mord]

What Geohot and team FailOverFlow did was to release the information contained in the product you already own, publically, for free. You already own it. You're not stealing anything.

 

Personally I don't care about whether people are hacking their consoles or not. I prefer to see homebrew on consoles become bigger. The only thing I would like to see done is the hacking done to non-current consoles. Hack and open up the console privately if you must, no problem. But at least wait until the console has been retired before going public with the information as you know the console WILL be retired within 10 years. (Usually 5 up to this point but whatever. Given how slow this generation seemed to start off it's not unusual.)

 

For starters this would avoid the entire cat-and-mouse game seen on the consoles firmware BS this generation which makes it harder and harder to open the console up for homebrew 10-20 years down the road when 90% of the population no longer give a rats ass about it. Now this is the first real generation with the firmware BS going on, so hopefully the hackers will have learned a lesson when the new consoles become available (starting with the 3ds and psp2) but I have a sad feeling we'll see the game continue.

[Reaperman]

I guess we should open up a new thread on ps3 hacking because this one's shot to hell.

 

Maybe you should just frequent a hackers forum? The threads about hacking on there would be right up your alley I'll bet.

You're actually not allowed to start threads about hacking on AA, unless like Underball pointed out you just want to discuss hacking in general, which is what is being done, and that includes all sides of it.

Just suck it up.

Nah, it's probably fine to discuss console hacking specifics here. The rules don't seem to disallow it, and this is the forum that taught me how to hack my psp and my ps2. Heck, it even sells (very old) hacked games. Once the scene stabilizes a bit more, somebody will have to reboot on this a bit with a more specific topic including a proper guide.

 

My objection was more to the tone we've gotten to, and I've had my part in that too, but I don't see us stopping discussion on ps3 hacking.

Edited February 15, 2011 by Reaperman

[Mord]

Nah, it's probably fine to discuss console hacking specifics here. The rules don't seem to disallow it, and this is the forum that taught me how to hack my psp and my ps2. Heck, it even sells (very old) hacked games. Once the scene stabilizes a bit more, somebody will have to reboot on this a bit with a more specific topic including a proper guide.

 

Based on the guidelines, there's nothing to forbid the discussing of hacking consoles. The only thing that comes remotely close is that you're not allowed to discuss where to find/download copyrighted materials. Hacking something you bought isn't copyright infringement. The Jaguar forum takes it a bit further regarding anything that might remotely lead to piracy, but that's that forum and Jaguar-specific.

[moycon]

Based on the guidelines, there's nothing to forbid the discussing of hacking consoles.

 

Agreed, which is what we're doing aren't we?

Because you don't agree with all the opinions is no reason to suggest the thread is shot to hell.

We have seen threads locked in the past that are people asking questions in regards to hacking specifically for piracy is why I brought that up.

[potatohead]

Truth is, anybody who just wants to have their pure gaming experience, simply should be renting their gear, period. I'm completely serious about that.

 

Everybody else, who actually buys things with some expectation of owning them needs to "suck it up" and realize that people can and will do stuff with the things they own that other people don't like. That comes with ownership and it's distinctly different from "a experience". Think hard on that.

 

As for "the undesirable things"... Inability to play titles over extended periods of time, per play / per player fees / diminished diversity in game availability / legal precedent set for closed computing = ownership, which will impact your everyday computing life restricting your currently legal, but not profitable options, etc...

 

I suppose a lot of that is lost on that "legit" player, who really is interested in "the experience." That's the Disneyland model, and clearly a rental one, because such a system would not actually allow real ownership, and all that comes with it. People go to Disneyland for "the experience", not to actually exert any control or ownership over things. When they come home, they return to the real world where people own stuff, and do things, some of which we don't like, but we live with, because everybody knows we can't all just be in Disneyland all the time.

 

So then, it's either "it's just a experience", or not. So, which is it? Willing to rent a device to play on, and purchase access licenses for it, however limited in time, or number of plays, players, etc... they may be?

 

Great!! I am seriously proposing that option be made available to the "legit" players, so they have a place where they can just pay to play with no worries. Bring that on --quickly.

 

Maybe you get lucky and they do a "all you can eat" model, for $100 a month or so. Then you've got the walled off garden, where nobody really knows anything but how to play the games, and life is good right? Disneyland on a budget. Perfect.

 

Seems to me that makes a whole hell of a lot more sense than trying to somehow continue this lie of ownership, when the truth is they would prefer you don't actually own anything, just play games and shit cash.

 

Think I'm kidding? You guys read the same articles I have on the various trade pubs. That's what they want.

 

I'm saying kill two birds with one stone! Give them exactly that, use a subscription model, wall the whole thing off, and let the "legit" gamers play in complete security, no worries!

 

So then, "the console" would be something like a cable box. You get one, plug it in, and the first thing it does is fetch it's firmware from the secure / encrypted net connection, then offer up the menu of access licenses paid for, and the store for more, done! You don't actually buy it. That's just a setup fee, covering the equipment risk, and account management. When you are done, you return it all, and they don't actually sell you anything physical, the media or bits to the games are never seen. Go to the game store and just buy a card with codes on it, next!

 

If you make the case that learning how something you OWN works, and sharing that understanding with OTHER OWNERS of similar devices is a BAD THING, then that's what you are asking for, and that is very highly likely to be what you get. Every paper I've read on DRM schemes, trusted computing, and every presentation I've attended all drills down to eliminating ownership in favor of "the experience", or pay to play, where the user is not trusted on the devices they buy, which essentially is renting them without having to actually cover losses and failures. That's a double dip rip off!

 

There is your answer right there. It's not hard. Could be setup and running in two years, secure as hell, and linked to every paying player personally just like the cable bill is. Hmmm... get banned, and maybe that person is banned for life, unable to get another account, or maintain a online identity anymore that is theirs, always playing by proxy, labled for the dumbass they are.

 

Sound intriguing?

 

It should because again, that is exactly what the end game on this kind of thing is.

 

Seems to me we could just extend that trend, not actually selling much of anything but access and use licenses. Phones, cars, computers, anything where knowing something might piss some people off would be rental only, with stiff contracts and draconian use conditions, but the experience would be sweet!!

 

Maybe we could even start down the road to being the morlocks and eloi! Hell, in the US we don't make anything anymore as it is. Can't even build a PS3, Kindle, iPad, etc... here, so why bother? We just pay and play, content to let those that actually DO OWN things tell us what to do, how to live, what our options are, etc...

 

LOL!!

 

Tell you all what. Don't fuck with my rights of ownership, and I'll not fuck with your gaming experiences, and together we can push for things that improve the state of things for both of us, while discouraging hacking and piracy.

 

Re: Infringement is simply infringement, see post above. I know it hurts to be called out on that, and I'm sorry for it, but we really do need to use the right words to discuss the problem, or the result will be less than desirable.

 

(and I'm 100 percent right about it too)

 

It is somewhat fashionable to not want to use the right word; namely, infringement, keeping it all low brow, simple, clean. Nobody really likes smart people these days, right? Yeah. Thought so. Continue cheer leading on that. Plenty of people are.

 

Re: State of thread. No worries here.

Edited February 15, 2011 by potatohead

[Lord Helmet]

 

I view this as no different than living in an apartment.... yes, you have the right to listen to music and/or play your television. But when the sound level you project interferes with the neighbor's enjoyment of life, now there is a big problem.

 

My condensed viewpoint: I don't screw around with your gaming experience, PLEASE don't screw around with mine.

 

 

Mendon

 

This is the whole deal in a nutshell right here.

[moycon]

Truth is, anybody who just wants to have their pure gaming experience, simply should be renting their gear, period. I'm completely serious about that.

 

This is assuming that when someone makes a purchase they need to use it until the day they die to get their money's worth.

Truth is, do you still use your first wireless phone? How about your old numeric pager? PDA? Your first cassette Walkman? Your first VCR or Betamax?

Your first washer and dryer?

 

Is it because every one of them completely stopped working or did you get your use out of them and move on?

I'm confused because I've absolutely had all those things (some still work fine, some I've gotten rid of) the fact I can no longer use them at all or use them for much doesn't bother me in the least and you're telling me it should, and I should rent?

 

I think this is the truth, 20 years from now you'll find perfectly working, non-hacked PS3s in the trash. They were paid for, some on the day of their launch and the person that threw the console away will be playing with his PS4 and have no regrets.

 

That said, I can absolutely see media consoles (TV, movies, music, and video games all rolled into one) being subscription or pay as you go boxes only in the future, maybe even the very near future. It's probably how the console producers will deal with piracy and the ease of distributing the tools to pirate. Time and technology changes. One day old-school gamers will be frail and gray and tell youngsters "I can remember days long ago when there was no satellite consumer net, you could actually collect physical games in those days and set them on a shelf. There also weren't so many morlocks back then."

[potatohead]

Truth is, anybody who just wants to have their pure gaming experience, simply should be renting their gear, period. I'm completely serious about that.

 

This is assuming that when someone makes a purchase they need to use it until the day they die to get their money's worth.

Truth is, do you still use your first wireless phone? How about your old numeric pager? PDA? Your first cassette Walkman? Your first VCR or Betamax?

Your first washer and dryer?

 

Is it because every one of them completely stopped working or did you get your use out of them and move on?

I'm confused because I've absolutely had all those things (some still work fine, some I've gotten rid of) the fact I can no longer use them at all or use them for much doesn't bother me in the least and you're telling me it should, and I should rent?

 

I think this is the truth, 20 years from now you'll find perfectly working, non-hacked PS3s in the trash. They were paid for, some on the day of their launch and the person that threw the console away will be playing with his PS4 and have no regrets.

 

That said, I can absolutely see media consoles (TV, movies, music, and video games all rolled into one) being subscription or pay as you go boxes only in the future, maybe even the very near future. It's probably how the console producers will deal with piracy. One day old-school gamers will be frail and gray and tell youngsters "I can remember days long ago when there was no satellite consumer net, you could actually collect physical games in those days and set them on a shelf. There also wasn't so many morlocks back then."

 

None of that matters. It might last a year, might last 20. I have my great boom box from the 80's, one of my computers, digital watch (expensive Seiko), power supply I built, TV, other things...

 

You are focused on how YOU get value for things, and what YOU think is important. Maybe a lot of people see it the way you do. In fact, the case for that is strong, precisely because most of the people I encounter in life don't care how things work so much as what those things do for them.

 

But I do care. I care because I may want to use the thing in some fashion that's useful to me, repurposing it.

 

You know, I've got all my killer vinyl. Transcoded a lot of that into digital formats. Got my CD's too, including the first one ever. Plays fine.

 

And you know what? If they SELL me that console? It's MINE. I get to keep it, burn it, open it up, and do all manner of things with it. People that own their stuff get to do that. People that don't own their stuff don't.

 

So if it's that big of a issue, DON'T SELL THINGS TO PEOPLE. That's really my point throughout this.

 

When you sell things to people, they get to do what they want with them. That is what ownership is.

 

Now, on the other matter, it's not important that people actually do open up their stuff. For most people, that's probably a bad idea. They don't know enough to open that stuff up. But, some of us do, and we resent it when we see "no user servicable parts inside", as if they think we are stupid.

 

Really, those labels are for the kinds of people that actually read them.

 

You might not care how long things last, but again I do. That's part of how we get value from things. Some people don't care much. I see them drive new cars every few years. Me? I've got a car from '89, and it's excellent, and it's cheap ass, and yes, I have absolutely got my moneys worth.

 

When my wife got sick, and I lost a home and paid brutally to keep her from dying, you bet your ass I was happy that I learned the things I did, and managed the things I own the way I did, because we didn't have much for a while. So, that means not spending money to solve problems, but actually just solving problems with the materials at hand.

 

Was true when I was a poor kid too, and of all the things in this world I value, it is the right to read, learn, do, grow, build, modify, because it has saved my ass countless times, and that has a lot of value.

 

Marginalizing how others see value from things doesn't do you any good. Frankly, I think it's shallow, for what that's worth.

 

Do you know what the morlocks will do with a pure rental scene?

 

Build their own and game on just like they do now. The "legit" gamers? They will take the stuff they are fed. That's the difference.

 

Truth is, you seem to find all kinds of ways to marginalize others and how they value things and why. Admittedly, you are just a gamer. Legit one at at that.

 

Who are you to actually know about this stuff?

 

See how that works?

 

Yes, you are welcome, and no I didn't mean it.

 

Cheers!

[potatohead]

(home now)

 

Well, that story could go a different way too.

 

Old people, who experienced the time before massive DRM and corporate consolidation and the massive attack on the working global middle class lived through a time of great angst.

 

The promise of longevity and global and near universal access to information was threatened by multi-national corporations seeing to exert control, circumvent the body of common law through the use of "code as law". Ordinary people became very dependent on digital technology, and manufacturing was centralized to a few nations willing to exploit their people for the corporations greater good.

 

For a time, technical know how and critical thinking was frowned upon. A long and subtle battle was fought where the access to enabling information was fought and almost lost!

 

Media, game and other intellectual asset production companies pushed for pay per use, view, and worked with the centralized manufacturing to produce closed devices, leaving the people dependent on them, exploited, with little recourse as the technical skills needed to compete and check the raw exploitation were marginalized and those willing to share them persecuted under threats of terrorism, theft, piracy and sedition.

 

Near the beginning of the 21st century corporations were declared persons, under US law, whereby a massive effort to export the draconian and abusive IP law and corporate person status was attempted in near secrecy and would have seen great success if it were not for small bands of activists and a few nations friendly to the plight of ordinary people, and sensitive to the threats on their sovereignty such a global agreement would bring them.

 

Massive campaigns were fought in secret, in cyberspace with vigilante justice running unchecked, striking fear world wide, while strong nations saw the erosion of their labor pool, breaking of their social contracts, all while multi-national corporations continued to see ever higher, record breaking profit.

 

Today, many believe the singular event that changed the course of things was economic breakdowns, combined with unprecedented abuse of the control systems, clearly operating outside the law, overly constraining trade, personal intellectual freedom, and doing so at a cost the diminished labor market was unable to bear.

 

The global response was near universal as people world wide came to understand the importance of open systems, law, and the greater harm resulting from the now antiquated notion that corporations are people, and that ideas can be owned in near perpetuity.

 

Once the draconian treaties were rolled back, nations around the world began to once again take care of their own, each producing a sufficient amount of technology to insure that it's people would not be over exploited, and that there are checks and balances in the global information economy...

 

Heh.

 

The morlocks built this place, and the things in it. We enjoy a much greater ability to communicate, entertain, and act politically, and in general empower each other with information on a scale that seems like science fiction to this 80's kid, experiencing things every day that were once the stuff of dreams and books.

 

To imagine all of that stripped down, closed, walled off so that the next generation of people can't build or threaten the established players, now wealthy and in positions of power runs counter to pretty much everything I ever held dear.

 

It's always been about those people who build, learn, do, explore, challenge, and innovate, and it's never, ever been about the masses who consume.

 

We would not have gaming on the scale we do today, if it were not for the morlocks. It may seem easy to compartmentalize this problem as "a pain in the ass", which it is BTW, and just ignore the dynamics that got us here, losing our future in the process.

 

Very easy actually. Life is short.

 

But, we live in interesting times. How this stuff goes, the decisions we make now, will impact our kids and their kids for a very long time.

 

The idea that some day, years from now, some poor kid can't get access to the information needed to let their talent shine, them contribute to the world and profit from that, for the fear that a few asses would render the greater good moot is laughable. Entertaining that might as well be advocacy that we return to the dark ages and be done with it.

 

I too believe a lot of things will be rental only, time limited, digitally controlled, etc... That's gonna happen. But, those of us who can build, do, learn, explore, won't really be all that limited by that as we can do what it takes to entertain ourselves, realize the tech we need, and in general present a great alternative to the closed down, expensive dependency that would be the only choice otherwise.

 

Practicing morlock here. I don't do bad things, but I will open up your car, or restore a license for expensive software that is locked to a dead computer, or maybe even fix your appliances, or keep that old car running, or build you a nice little custom game system, or read that old media, or...

 

That is what this discussion is about in the greater context, make no mistake about it. And if really bad things happen? You will want a few of us around. Trust me. Always goes that way, always will too, because we people are just fragile and kind of stupid enough to get into trouble we create for ourselves, let alone what the world dishes out to us.

 

We can get along on this. There are options, ideas, business models, and social norms that can and need to be applied to the problem, or we are going to create a lot more difficult problems than being annoyed at some clown that has gained some understanding of the world, but not the wisdom to apply it in a way that makes sense.

 

At the end of the day, all things considered, gaming just isn't that big of a deal. It's being made out to be one, largely because here in the US we don't do much besides make war, tell stores and make games --even those things are challenged regularly.

 

Used to be, we set the bar too. Been a while since that happened, and I'm not sure how it happened, but it has. Not happy about that either.

 

I'm not going to be one of those people, who simply always does what they are told, nor be one of those people who depend on things they don't understand, largely because I've seen some shit, dealt some shit, and the world isn't always the nice place it's made out to be. And I sure as hell feel absolutely no need to worry about the profit from a company who would screw me in a second, and do it again either.

 

It's not like these guys are losing big. They just are not making as much as they think they should make, and that's a personal problem as far as I'm concerned. There is a big difference between that and some real material losses, and that's not often discussed either, and it should be.

 

Like I said, it's not that big of a deal. So we need to work on the problem, because it's the right thing to do, but when we start persecuting people, ruining lives over a few fickle bits, while the world burns for our greater folly, some of the priorities are more than a little fucked up.

 

Infringement carries a higher overall penalty than rape does. Food for thought, no?

 

Call me jaded, but that's how I see it. I lived in a time before video games, Internet, Cable TV, VCR, Microwave, computer.. and I'm really glad I did, because with that comes perspective that I don't think is all that pervasive today.

 

It worries me frankly.

Edited February 16, 2011 by potatohead

[madmax2069]

This is assuming that when someone makes a purchase they need to use it until the day they die to get their money's worth.

Truth is, do you still use your first wireless phone? How about your old numeric pager? PDA? Your first cassette Walkman? Your first VCR or Betamax?

Your first washer and dryer?

 

even if you wanted to use a first gen cell i do not think it would work, i am not sure if the service is still available or a carrier that would still allow you to use it, but if i had no other choice i would use one.

 

Many people still use the old numeric pagers, many are doctors. but i never owned one nor do i need one since i have a cell.

 

I still use my old Newton MP 2100 to this day, they are still very useful to this day, i think a few are still being used as a web server http://66.18.227.240:8080/

 

I still have old SONY cassette Walkman but since i have no cassette tapes i do not use it.

 

I still use my VCR, i have to many VCR tapes no to use it.

 

never owned a betamax

 

and yes i still use my first washer and dryer because they are only a few years old, bought them used. some still use those old wringer washers and dry their clothes by a line.

[moycon]

even if you wanted to use a first gen cell i do not think it would work, i am not sure if the service is still available or a carrier that would still allow you to use it, but if i had no other choice i would use one.

 

To be honest with you I don't think that was the point of potatohead even bringing up the whole renting thing. I thought he was implying that if you buy a tech product you were foolish to not hack it so you could enjoy it beyond what it was intended for so you could get your money's worth and if you weren't going to then you might as well rent it.

I think I interpreted it wrong. It sounds more like we're back to the if you purchase something you can do whatever you want with it (which is completely untrue) and if you aren't going to do whatever you want with it, you should just be renting them because renters can't do whatever they want with a product and owners can. (Although then there's the whole rent to own thing) *sigh*

 

The funny thing is, the easier it is to steal or infringe or whatever you want to call it, someone else s intellectual property without compensating them, and the easier it is to pass on that lame information to the masses, the quicker we probably all will be renting all our 1's and 0's. DLC only consoles will be a product for the times. Look at iPhone, Live, Sony Store, etc...We're already being conditioned for it.

 

But yeah I doubt you could use your brick phone as is right now. Hopefully you got your moneys worth.

[potatohead]

Not quite right.

 

What I am saying here is that we have the right to observe the world, and understand how it works. That is the core of why we have games to play in the first place.

 

(those pesky morlocks)

 

You are absolutely not a fool for buying a console and just using it. I implied no such thing. What I did mean to communicate is that it's perfectly reasonable for somebody to examine it in detail and understand how it works. After all, it is theirs.

 

The core point here is that it remain possible for somebody do do that, not that people are fools for not doing that. Again, life is short, and if that's not of interest, why bother?

 

The other core point is that people who buy things expect to get to use them. The Air Force bought the PS3 consoles to make a nice little ad-hoc super computer.

 

Now many consoles, if not all of them I don't know, are sold at a loss with the expectation that most people will game on them. I think that's a perfectly reasonable expectation. However, not all the people will game on them. That also is a reasonable expectation.

 

It's not our problem to insure that Sony makes money on the console. That's their risk, and it is a risk because people will do what they do.

 

The other thing I was communicating is that everybody values things differently. If one person is just looking for the latest experience, they probably don't care about long life, archives, other uses, etc... If another person looks to see experiences that endure, or wants to use the thing for something besides gaming, or to collect, by way of many examples, they will absolutely be looking at how useful it is, time of service, ease of service, etc...

 

It's not a reasonable expectation that some people get devalued for their particular life management preferences. Some of us don't mind being rather dependent on others. Some of us do mind that.

 

I, in particular, mind that, because I've been dealt the kind of cards in life, starting when I was very young, that highlighted the value of technical knowledge in a rather pointed way. I like to buy nice things and use them for a fairly long service life, and ideally I buy things that I can come to understand to extend said service life, because that's how I roll.

 

Love that old Toyota. The county wants me to get rid of it BADLY. But, it's a great car, I understand it nearly fully, and it's service life is so far 300K miles + and it's got another 100K in it easy. Dollars per mile, it's cheap ass.

 

Used to be, we made things to last because it makes a lot of sense. We don't always do that anymore, and that doesn't invalidate the value perception of things that do last, but it does impact the business model of those clowns looking to sell things regularly, instead of sell really great things and innovate to sell other, new things.

 

(and it's not like I feel sorry for them either when it does not work out that way)

 

The greater context here is all about what ownership means. If we say that Sony gets to sell a console, and put conditions on the sale, then other people are going to do that, and literally people, because we ruled that corporations are, in fact, people, which is a load, but such is the state of law today.

 

So then Ford gets to sell a car with conditions, and so it goes, until things get rather ugly with people basically constrained into difficult positions for no real reason other than profit.

 

That's not ok.

 

I love the apartment analogy above. People rent apartments, so they have to endure the use restrictions. People buy houses so they don't have to put up with all that shit.

 

IMHO, fools buy houses with covenants, such as a homeowners association, where they pretty much return to apartment living, often with fairly severe restrictions.

 

Geohot learned about his console. He shared that. This happens every day with all kinds of technology. People could do stuff. People could do really bad stuff, and it isn't hard to both know how, and to obtain what it takes to do bad stuff.

 

Do we prevent people from learning?

 

That's the issue right there. Right now there is a rather concerning trend to do exactly that. Can't get a good chemistry set anymore. People frown on making fireworks, for example. Overall, somehow, curious people, or bright people are being seen as a threat, or shady, or worse.

 

That's not ok either. Learning stuff and sharing it, or applying it to problems is how I make my living. They devalued manufacturing. I liked doing that, but it all got sent overseas, with what's left having to compete for what is basically crap wages a increasing amount of the time.

 

Now computer, IT, design, and many other things are being outsourced too, devaluing lots of skills that many people have aquired.

 

So for me personally, I've raised the bar again, doing people oriented things to avoid the devaluing of my time and labor.

 

I don't want to spend my limited time and labor for pennies, and I work to avoid doing that, and I often work hard.

 

When I was a kid, my uncle taught me how to pick locks. Had a whole bucket of them, and each one I opened and brought to him came with a nice story about that lock, how it differs from the other ones, and other goodies thrown in for good measure.

 

I could go around unlocking lots of things. There are some people in this world that do go around unlocking things, too. Does that mean we simply deny people the ability to unlock things?

 

What if the owner of the lock abuses it?

 

Do people just take that, or do they seek remedies. It's expensive to sue people, and a lot of us think that's frivolous, so what else is to be done?

 

Empower ourselves so we are not chumps, push back on it, have some self-respect and deal. That's what I was raised to do. And I do exactly that, taking very little shit in life that I don't have to, because I spend the time to insure that I am empowered in the law, technology, and in the social skills needed to avoid the worst of the shit.

 

So this thing is a direct threat to me, and others like me. Nobody likes the asses that learn things and then abuse that, me included. But then again, nobody wants to be denied their shot at that responsibility and the income or opportunity it brings either.

 

That means we deal.

 

What I resent the most is the general "hackers are bad". Well, most people that say that don't really even understand what hacking is, or how it differs from cracking, and all that one sees going down that road. They just see people that can do stuff they can't, and I imagine it's a threat just the same as the one Sony is putting out there, and that many companies have done before, and probably will after too.

 

Now this:

 

The funny thing is, the easier it is to steal or infringe or whatever you want to call it, someone else's intellectual property without compensating them, and the easier it is to pass on that lame information to the masses, the quicker we probably all will be renting all our 1's and 0's. I'll be a product for the times.

 

Is very interesting to me. You know, there was a time when we didn't have software patents, nor business process patents, and there was a time when IP ownership term limits were rather short, under 30 years, or so.

 

It was possible to innovate in those times, make some money, and others would have a shot at doing the same, and we saw a lot of innovation.

 

Want to know the flip side of locking all that down?

 

We don't get as many new things! Since we've extended IP ownership to the levels we have, innovation is getting very expensive and very risky. Know who that hurts?

 

Us. It's our diminished future for profit in the now. Sound like a good deal?

 

And let's talk about abuse of the law. The DMCA, which basically is the crime of Geohot telling somebody how to do something, was originally intended to address the issue of people hacking cable and satellite TV devices.

 

Since it passed, corporations have used it to suppress anything and everything they don't like!

 

With the rapidly growing draconian state of IP law these days, long copyright terms, oppressive patents, diminished content innovation, is there any wonder people are acting out?

 

No.

 

Then there is the issue of "fair". No right of IP ownership is absolute, or we would be paying people to exchange posts here. Terms are limited, scope is limited, and most importantly, there are every day infringments that are simply tolerated because enforcement would be either a travesty of the law, or oppressive to the people.

 

I have a growing feeling my posts here are largely lost, given how poorly they were received. Perhaps not though, so I'll make them anyway.

 

The matter is more complex than is often represented by console makers, gamers, and those that produce games.

 

So it comes down to this. Why fuck with the people that built this stuff in the first place? Secondly, why cheer lead for big companies, who clearly have zero interest in anything other than complete ownership of the world and everything in it?

 

I like games, and play them. However, if all the games were gone tomorrow, leaving us to just our computers and other devices, I probably would just write my own, or build other things, or just live the rest of life.

 

We have built this entire modern society amidst rampant infringement the whole time. Nothing has changed now. There still is infringement, there are still new works, there is a fucking LOT of money being made, and so how big of a deal is it?

 

Big enough to deny up and coming geeks the opportunity I had? Hell no it isn't worth that. Big enough to ruin lives over? I don't think so either.

 

The issue isn't even big enough for Sony to take a loss, so just how bad can it really be?

 

And who trusts who here? What happens when a shit game comes out, does poorly, and some chump exec somewhere blames piracy for that gaffe, because his job would be on the line otherwise, if somebody knew he signed off on a turd?

 

There's a lot of that not being discussed here.

 

My pointed posts are that way for a reason. Several posts here were aimed right at marginalizing people like me, my value choices, and how I see the property matter, and they were done under the cover of "majority legit gamers...", and it's shit, flat out.

 

Sorry, but I don't take that kind of shit, and I'll tell you why. If you add up my life and what I've done, it's a net gain, and that's all anybody needs to know. The idea that we are free people shuts down the rest, and the fact that I expressly posted up many options that could be used to manage the scene without draconian law seals the deal.

 

Not to mention that I understand the desire to just game completely. Perfectly understandable actually, but I disagree on the weighting of the problem.

 

So the idea that the easier it is equates to rent a stuff is a red herring.

 

The truth is, digital technology can be abused. The users of it can abuse it, and the source or creators or managers of it can abuse too.

 

Say we do lock it all down. What's to say somebody else won't just sell things that are open to compete?

 

See how that works? If we lock it all down, then I can't really make my own game console, sell it, and game with friends on it, because that would compete with the rather shitty rent a deal.

 

That is how it has always been. The difference now is they are wanting to take the control of things to another level. We need to seriously think about that and ask ourselves some hard questions about what is worth what, or they are going to answer them, and we all know the answer will be the absolute max, for the least value in return. Count on it.

 

This is why we prefer markets where there are options, and there is competition, so that doesn't happen, because every one of us with that kind of power would go full throttle and get the max. I would. Wouldn't you?

 

Checks and balances. What keeps DRM in check, is open code, open devices, and open knowledge and understanding. Without it, they can just extract whatever revenue they desire, NOT what is reasonable for the value delivered for the dollar.

 

Here's a really ugly counter point. How do we know that piracy isn't being used as a scapegoat to boost revenue? The music industry does it. The movie industry does it. Do we really think the game industry doesn't do it?

 

Secondly, is it being used to escape trying and innovating other business models to better reflect the state of technology today? Again, the music industry does it. The movie industry does it. Are we really so naive to believe the game industry doesn't do it?

 

Why?

 

And as for locked down hardware being abused, just look at what the printer people do to make money on ink! It's just nuts! Those asses have pulled every trick in the book except just making a good printer, for a good price that prints for a good long time.

 

Funny how that all works isn't it?

 

So don't tell me that all is rosy with the console manufacturers and game publishers, because it just isn't.

 

And this is exactly why I posted that we should have a rental, secure program where those people that want the pure, Disneyland experience can have it, leaving the rest to "the wild west", and we see just what is worth what.

 

(I think the wild west would kick the shit out of Disneyland because that's where all the real fun 'n games are)

 

So don't marginalize those things just because some clown somewhere chapped your ass. Truth is, a clown somewhere did something stupid. We deal with the clowns or marginalize their actions, not deploy the tactical nuke on somebody who didn't do those things, and that's Geohot.

 

Somebody did a shooting here last week. Do we take all the guns?

 

Somebody else hacked some network somewhere. Do we take all the computers, or throw the geeks in jail, or shackle them for no reason other than we are worried about the clowns?

 

No.

 

That's not how I roll, and I'm pretty damn sure most people faced with that dilemma would see it more my way than not.

Edited February 16, 2011 by potatohead

[Shannon]

Well looks like someone designed an easy method of getting around the inability to connect to PSN..

 

Drizzt Releases FuckPSN 0.4 - The Easiest 3.55 PSN Method Yet.

[potatohead]

LOL!!

 

learner says:

February 15, 2011 at 7:36 pm

VA:F [1.9.7_1111]

Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)

 

can you provide a video tutorial? i don’t want to make a mistake.

 

Now there you go, found on one of the links I looked at. Brick waiting to happen. There is a big difference between opening up the console, and providing one, two, three step instructions on how to get on PSN like that... You can bet that guy probably isn't actually learning all that much, and it's sad. (prolly will find their handle and I'll catch hell for it too, sorry in advance)

 

It's cat 'n mouse too. I think Sony will nail these guys. The console is one thing, but PSN is a service, and it's not something people own, and I think it's really playing with fire to access it like that. Not cool.

 

The great hack would be a private PSN. Then we would have both "the wild west" and "disneyland" options. Kind of like ID did with Quake. Was excellent to just fire up servers. I think it was in many ways a mistake to centralize that stuff.

Edited February 16, 2011 by potatohead

[madmax2069]

The great hack would be a private PSN. Then we would have both "the wild west" and "disneyland" options. Kind of like ID did with Quake. Was excellent to just fire up servers. I think it was in many ways a mistake to centralize that stuff.

 

Heck look at PSO and its backup server (schthack) that people reversed engineered due to logging packets when they was playing online on the offical servers and was compatible with many other versions of PSO. it is very time consuming and will be even more so when it comes to newer things like PSN or live or today's online gaming servers (the encryption and protection methods put into place (or as with consoles a IP collection pool if you will)).

 

heck most online console games do not really rely on a dedicated server per say and connect with each other via direct IP (as in one player in the lobby is host and the rest are clients), only a select few rely on real dedicated servers for online play (mag for a example as a online game for PS3 that uses a real dedicated server).

 

look at how many people that remained playing halo 2 when the original xbox live was pulled, there was people still playing halo 2 for days on end after live was pulled, but once you quit out you could not get back due to the IP pool (live) being taken down.

 

but with enough time and effort and skills it could be done, but would it ? i would say not now because the services are still up and running and SONY or MS would go after the ones providing this service, maybe it could once PSN for PS3 or Live for 360 gets taken down but only after that happens. but would anyone really put forth that much effort.

 

we do have xlink kai and xbox connect for most of this but only for games that are system link/lan capable.

Edited February 16, 2011 by madmax2069

[Petran79]

To answer to mr potatohead's fascinating posts:

 

I am 31 years old.My generation (in the western world at least) is the last that experienced the analog age. Lp discs, analog radio, monochrome tv, no internet, scarce telephones, big selling newspapers etc.

When something big occured you knew it the next day. When the postman came you expected the worst. The word 'immediately' had not the same meaning as today. My parents had even less. Eg when my father was very young they had no electricity or water pipes. My grandparents who lived in the countryside had even less of what we consider standard today like a doctor nearby, plus they experienced ww2 first hand.

Yet they succeeded despite the huge difficulties. I feel that burden myself. The more the parents succeed the more difficult for the kids to do the same.

 

Video games is what separates me and my parents generation. The way games change is what will separate me and the youths and teens from now on. If in 10 years games become like you say i will not even care. I dont care eg about current fps or wow games.

The games, like developers predict, will have become completely virtual with online worlds and communities. It will be like disneyland indeed but every theme park will cost extra to play.

Some will still hack their way into the game and probably offer a hack within the game!

[Underball]

 

I view this as no different than living in an apartment.... yes, you have the right to listen to music and/or play your television. But when the sound level you project interferes with the neighbor's enjoyment of life, now there is a big problem.

 

My condensed viewpoint: I don't screw around with your gaming experience, PLEASE don't screw around with mine.

 

 

Mendon

 

This is the whole deal in a nutshell right here.

 

But not everyone lives in an apartment. I own my home. I bought it. I can do what I like with it. If I want to replace the kitchen cabinets, or put in a new toilet - that's my prerogative.

 

That's the advantage of ownership.

 

I also own my PS3. If I want to hack it, I will. If want to rip it's guts out and make it a planter for Tulips - I will.

[Mendon]

 

But not everyone lives in an apartment. I own my home. I bought it. I can do what I like with it. If I want to replace the kitchen cabinets, or put in a new toilet - that's my prerogative.

 

That's the advantage of ownership.

 

I also own my PS3. If I want to hack it, I will. If want to rip it's guts out and make it a planter for Tulips - I will.

 

I hear what you are saying and don't totally disagree at all. But in reality, I'm not sure anyone really has total ownership of their home.

 

I've lived in Florida 11 years and "Deed Restricted" communities are prevalent beyond belief. It can actually be difficult to find a non-deed restricted community anywhere near a metro area in many areas.

 

These Home Owner Associations tell you what color you can and can't paint your house, what you can and can't park in your driveway (some do not allow pick-up trucks to be parked in the driveway!), what type of grass you can have for a lawn, how many shrubs/flowers/trees you can have and what type they might be.

 

And even if you live in a non-restricted community, the government can come in and take your home any time they believe having it would be in the better interest of the community. Or have too many animals or animals of a certain type, and you can be told you can't. Want to put an addition or upgrade to your home and you must seek approval, fee payment, and inspection. And on and on.

 

So I don't disagree with you at all that ownership is the best and that owning your home (and PS3) rather than renting is less restrictive in many respects.

 

But in the total scheme of life, I'm not sure that any of us actually own anything.

 

 

Mendon

Edited February 16, 2011 by Mendon

[hex65000]

I suppose a lot of that is lost on that "legit" player, who really is interested in "the experience." That's the Disneyland model, and clearly a rental one, because such a system would not actually allow real ownership, and all that comes with it.

I would argue that it's lost primarily because a lot of folks don't think about keeping their stuff beyond a relatively short interval. The prevalence of GameStop and what I would call least common denominator iterative games illustrate that.

 

So then, it's either "it's just a experience", or not. So, which is it? Willing to rent a device to play on, and purchase access licenses for it, however limited in time, or number of plays, players, etc... they may be?

Depends on who you ask. If you ask publishers or people who have been convinced that buying and selling used is just like (piracy / infringement) the answer would likely be the rent model. Publishers have been wringing their collective hands on that for a while -- the other demographic is (IMO) lost in the illusion that talking heads and publishers present that they believe it, or are so focused on a throw-away world that while they may balk at a rental model, but you put a least common denominator title as a rental console exclusive and watch them fall in line fast. I am of the opinion that we are collectively not the target audience for these consoles. Oh sure, they'll gladly take our money, and even throw us a bone once in a while. However that LCD I keep talking about, it isn't us and they are the ones the publishers want to sell to.

 

Also of note, just like in politics, if you keep repeating the same message over and over again, people start believing in it. Because you keep saying it in multiple ways and in multiple locations I guess. <shrug> But it works. People parrot talking heads and politicians all the time. That's how I explain the whole anti used games argument gaining any real traction at least.

 

If you make the case that learning how something you OWN works, and sharing that understanding with OTHER OWNERS of similar devices is a BAD THING, then that's what you are asking for, and that is very highly likely to be what you get. Every paper I've read on DRM schemes, trusted computing, and every presentation I've attended all drills down to eliminating ownership in favor of "the experience", or pay to play, where the user is not trusted on the devices they buy, which essentially is renting them without having to actually cover losses and failures. That's a double dip rip off!

You have stated in long form what I've come to realize:

Developers hate us as users, but they love our money.

 

They hate us as users because we "Just can't be trusted with anything". The other part is pretty self explanatory.

 

It should because again, that is exactly what the end game on this kind of thing is.

 

Seems to me we could just extend that trend, not actually selling much of anything but access and use licenses. Phones, cars, computers, anything where knowing something might piss some people off would be rental only, with stiff contracts and draconian use conditions, but the experience would be sweet!!

 

Maybe we could even start down the road to being the morlocks and eloi! Hell, in the US we don't make anything anymore as it is. Can't even build a PS3, Kindle, iPad, etc... here, so why bother? We just pay and play, content to let those that actually DO OWN things tell us what to do, how to live, what our options are, etc...

This image scares me terribly. I like the option to do unauthorized things to my gear. The emphasis being "my gear" If it's not impacting others, nobody should care. Of course, as soon as it's a rental model all that goes out the window. In other words, we collectively should be disturbed by the endgame model you describe.

 

I've been reading parts of this big thread, and the entire ps3 decrypt key thing is an overall win. It'll mean that eventually when Sony abandons support, there will be the possibility of breathing life back into the platform once our corporate masters declare it "obsolete". While the online cheating is inappropriate, it doesn't surprise me. The payoff isn't necessarily now, but with luck it'll come -- provided we still can own the hardware we buy.

 

<Stop: Tangent time!>

 

As an example, I've been playing a lot of StarCraft 2. A whole lot. Like logging at least 2 hours or more on average per day since around November. Now on the Blizzard forums, there is a lot of rolling out of what I call a player's digital phallus. Mostly along the lines of: "Your statement is invalid because my rating in this game is far better than yours, therefore you are an idiot." I can see this as a motive for online cheaters to improve -- not through any real skill -- their proverbial phallus. If only so they can get some cool gun, or skin, or whatever bonuses you can only get by being crazy good at a game. In some cases cheaters is like trolling, how annoyed can the cheater make everyone else as other players curse at them. I look at cheating this way, if it's you and your friends and you are all doing it together, it's not that big a deal. If it is you doing it to random strangers who are looking for a straight up game, it's not appropriate.

 

< and we're back...>

 

Something I wonder about is there are folks who are now 30-40 somethings who grew up with Atari and the NES. When the current LCD demographic get nostalgic and want to play their old games again, they will have roughly zero to work with. Other than whatever our corporate masters want to rent to us at that particular moment in time. I'd point out the irony of all of this to them then, but I figure they'll tell me to "Go to bed old man" or culturally we will have no sense of irony.

 

Another generalization is that it seems the newer the console the less cohesive the work done on it is from the homebrew / system hacking community. The exception might be the Wii which seems to have at least a semblance of a cohesive development culture.

 

Hex.

[ Broke down and got a Steam account... I'm not sure what I actually "bought"... if anything. ]

[Underball]

Well looks like someone designed an easy method of getting around the inability to connect to PSN..

 

Drizzt Releases FuckPSN 0.4 - The Easiest 3.55 PSN Method Yet.

and...it's over.

 

Sony sent out an official press release about it today, and then they released THE KRAKEN - BANHAMMER style.

 

 

 

Important: Access to PlayStation ® Network and access to post Qriocity ™ Services

 

Access to the PlayStation ® Network and access to services on your Qriocity ™ PlayStation ® 3 system is permanently terminated due to illegal or pirated software and unauthorized devices on your PlayStation ® 3 system.

 

This conflicts with the "License of the PlayStation ® 3 System," and the "Terms" of the PlayStation Network ® / ™ Qriocity and their conduct. In the unlikely event that the termination was incorrect, please contact the Helpdesk.

 

 

 

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This is an automatically sent e-mail. Why can not respond to messages sent to this address be sent back.

 

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Message-Id: <@ 20110216191144.1629206284.0.306-17494 eu.playstationmail.com>

 

Ban reports by the thousands are coming in hot around the various PSX forums.

[Shannon]

So the question is.. are everyone with a PSN account getting that email? Or just ones with jailbroken ps3's...?

[Underball]

So the question is.. are everyone with a PSN account getting that email? Or just ones with jailbroken ps3's...?

I have a Jailbroken PS3, but have not received the email. But then - I have not been on the PSN since I hacked it either.