Topic for newbies or veterans returning to Atari

[mimo]

Most of the original back catalogue will run on a 48K 800.
AVG cart is a great solution, but will need the cart port flap leaving open as you suggest.
Other options would be SDrive-max or one of the other flavours of SDrive, I think you will need to power the SDrive-max externally though. SIO2PC is pretty cheap and cheerful but you will be tethered to a PC of some description 
Fujinet is another alternative but I have never used one of these, again I think it will need external power on the 800
Incognito is a great mod for the 800, but may be a step to far at the moment if you are just getting a feel for the Atari 8bit computers 

[iscariot]

Hi.  I posted about the "new" 800XL I got.  I tried cleaning it with IPA and I was able to get almost all the grime off of it, but there's some stubborn staining on the top of the unit and I can't seem to get it off.....I posted a picture in the other topic:

I'm a little leery of using a magic eraser if it would damage the plastic.  Is there another solution I could try?  I'm talking about the area around the cartridge port.

[+Stephen]

3 hours ago, iscariot said:

Hi.  I posted about the "new" 800XL I got.  I tried cleaning it with IPA and I was able to get almost all the grime off of it, but there's some stubborn staining on the top of the unit and I can't seem to get it off.....I posted a picture in the other topic:

I'm a little leery of using a magic eraser if it would damage the plastic.  Is there another solution I could try?  I'm talking about the area around the cartridge port.

Don't use a magic eraser - it won't remove the colouring and it will definitely destroy the plastic finish.  You can search for the topic "retro brighting" here but that will require a full disassembly of the machine and case, and you don't want to get any of the peroxide cream on the brown areas of the case.

[iscariot]

I'm ok with the color,I just wanted to remove the stains.  Is there a way to get those off the area around the cartridge port.  Is there something better than ipa?  I was thinking a toothbrush with some soapy water but reading here it seems like taking it apart for cleaning is better

[+Brentarian]

1 hour ago, Stephen said:

and you don't want to get any of the peroxide cream on the brown areas of the case.

Yep, I learned that the hard way.

[iscariot]

4 hours ago, Stephen said:

Don't use a magic eraser - it won't remove the colouring and it will definitely destroy the plastic finish.  You can search for the topic "retro brighting" here but that will require a full disassembly of the machine and case, and you don't want to get any of the peroxide cream on the brown areas of the case.

I'm thinking more and more about a UAV mod right now and if I do that I have to take the case apart so I have an excuse to retrobrite it but I'm still not sure if it really needs it.  Any ideas on how to get those stains off?  I'm not even sure what they are, but scrubbing with IPA and a toothbrush isn't helping.  

[+Stephen]

57 minutes ago, iscariot said:

I'm thinking more and more about a UAV mod right now and if I do that I have to take the case apart so I have an excuse to retrobrite it but I'm still not sure if it really needs it.  Any ideas on how to get those stains off?  I'm not even sure what they are, but scrubbing with IPA and a toothbrush isn't helping.  

They are not stains in the sense that they can be washed or wiped off.  It's a chemical decomposition that has to be reversed with unfortunately, chemicals.  Think of it as baking bread.  While it turnd the bread brown, you can't just wipe that off - it has been altered and will remain brown since it has been cooked.  Way oversimplified, but you get the point.

[iscariot]

30 minutes ago, Stephen said:

They are not stains in the sense that they can be washed or wiped off.  It's a chemical decomposition that has to be reversed with unfortunately, chemicals.  Think of it as baking bread.  While it turnd the bread brown, you can't just wipe that off - it has been altered and will remain brown since it has been cooked.  Way oversimplified, but you get the point.

So the darker parts that look like grease or dirt can be fixed with retrobrite?  I can live with that, the last time I used peroxide it was on an snes and it came out splotchy, any advise on how to fix that?

[_The Doctor__]

Try a couple of different baby wipe brand and give it a a good scrub in all directions... it's worked more times than not... since the discoloration is primarily around the cart port it could be a combination of  sweat, oils, and dirt. You would not believe the number of machines that were going to be 'retrobrighted. That simply cleaned up this way. Can not hurt to try.

Edited May 1, 2022 by _The Doctor__

[iscariot]

4 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said:

Try a couple of different baby wipe brand and give it a a good scrub in all directions... it's worked more times than not... since the discoloration is primarily around the cart port it could be a combination of  sweat, oils, and dirt. You would not believe the number of machines that were going to be 'retrobrighted. That simply cleaned up this way. Can not hurt to try.

Wow I never would have thought baby wipes...I tried it with two kinds of wipes we had for the kid and it really, really cleaned up nicely.  Unit is now a clean vanilla color all across.  I'm wondering if I even need to retrobrite it.  Looking at pictures now to get an apples/apples comparison.

[_The Doctor__]

Baby wipes are magic ;). It can deep clean and be gentle. Saved many an Atari from the tortures of being baked and bleached. I explained some of the chemistry involved at one time, however most people don't believe it possible and won't even try. Certain brands really get the job done extremely well, some require a slight damp or wet period.

 

I am glad you gave it a go and succeeded with what you had on hand. I've been using the method for decades.

Edited May 1, 2022 by _The Doctor__

[DBenoit]

Hi. I am a total newbie who's been trying to get into this for a couple of weeks, and so far I am completely frustrated.

 

What I am trying to accomplish: Add the utilities disk to Diamond GOS 3.0 within Altirra 4.01, and write myself a victory note in Diamond Write.

Why I am trying to accomplish it: Because it's cool. There is something audacious about creating a GUI for an 8-bit computer just to be able to say "Look, I can click and drag too." The idea that it works at all is amazing, and I want to experience it.

What I have: Altirra 4.01, the OS and BASIC ROMS from Atari.Vjetnam, and the Diamond GOS 3.0 files from this very forum.

 

My first obstacle was that scanning the ROM folders gives Altirra a long and seemingly redundant list of firmware options. Each OS version and each BASIC revision appears multiple times. For example, XL/XE OS ver. 3 appears twice and BASIC rev. C appears three times. This is not at all intuitive to a new user trying to figure out what to pick. I tried a number of combinations that either resulted in the Altirra NoKernal ROM screen, boot errors, or Altirra crashing entirely. I finally got something working, and got as far as the Diamond GOS Desktop.

 

Current Altirra Setup:

Base system    NTSC 130XE
Additional Devices    None
OS Firmware    Atari XL/XE OS ver.3 [29F133F7]
Mounted Images    Disk: Diamond GOS3 Utilities.ATR [93FCA643]
Cartridge: DIAMGOS3.ROM [3671BDC5]

 

This setup successfully boots Diamond GOS/DeskTop 3.0, but all I have is the trashcan. I have tried the Install Disk function in Diamond GOS' Options menu. This gives me a DRIVE A icon on the desktop. However, trying to open it just gives me a disk error.

 

 

I have read the Diamond GOS manual, and it does not explain much. I'm sure there are some steps here I'm supposed to just already know, but I don't. I thought that was what the manual was for.

 

Can someone help?

[+Philsan]

On 9/15/2022 at 8:27 PM, DBenoit said:

Hi. I am a total newbie who's been trying to get into this for a couple of weeks, and so far I am completely frustrated.

 

What I am trying to accomplish: Add the utilities disk to Diamond GOS 3.0 within Altirra 4.01, and write myself a victory note in Diamond Write.

Why I am trying to accomplish it: Because it's cool. There is something audacious about creating a GUI for an 8-bit computer just to be able to say "Look, I can click and drag too." The idea that it works at all is amazing, and I want to experience it.

What I have: Altirra 4.01, the OS and BASIC ROMS from Atari.Vjetnam, and the Diamond GOS 3.0 files from this very forum.

 

My first obstacle was that scanning the ROM folders gives Altirra a long and seemingly redundant list of firmware options. Each OS version and each BASIC revision appears multiple times. For example, XL/XE OS ver. 3 appears twice and BASIC rev. C appears three times. This is not at all intuitive to a new user trying to figure out what to pick. I tried a number of combinations that either resulted in the Altirra NoKernal ROM screen, boot errors, or Altirra crashing entirely. I finally got something working, and got as far as the Diamond GOS Desktop.

 

Current Altirra Setup:

Base system    NTSC 130XE
Additional Devices    None
OS Firmware    Atari XL/XE OS ver.3 [29F133F7]
Mounted Images    Disk: Diamond GOS3 Utilities.ATR [93FCA643]
Cartridge: DIAMGOS3.ROM [3671BDC5]

 

This setup successfully boots Diamond GOS/DeskTop 3.0, but all I have is the trashcan. I have tried the Install Disk function in Diamond GOS' Options menu. This gives me a DRIVE A icon on the desktop. However, trying to open it just gives me a disk error.

 

 

I have read the Diamond GOS manual, and it does not explain much. I'm sure there are some steps here I'm supposed to just already know, but I don't. I thought that was what the manual was for.

 

Can someone help?

First of all, to run Altirra with original Atari XL roms you only need ATARIBAS.ROM and ATARIXL.ROM you can legally find here.

 

But after some struggle your emulator seems OK.

I've tried to install a Diamond disk but I've got a disk error too.

One time I was able to load the disk but I've no clue how I did it.

Please start a new thread, someone will surely help you.

[Steril707]

So, what are my options to get a better picture on my 600XL as someone who cannot solder and is especially far too scared to change stuff on the mainboard myself?

 

Thought about buying a VBXE and get Lotharek to install it, so I don't need to. I read that this already does a much better output.

 

Also, question 2: I don't really like how the keyboard behaves. Feels quite sticky sometimes. I have tried out the keypads of two 800XLs at friends places, and they have so crazily great keyboards. It's like night and day. Any way to get a better keyboard in there, or enhance the current one? 

 

Thanks for any answers, mates..

 

 

Edited December 28, 2022 by Steril707

[Mclaneinc]

 

If it's an XL then best does replacement custom key domes (forget what they are called, not the cap but the bit that does the contact beneath it.) and everyone who has tried them say it makes the keyboard so much better...Some with more knowledge could enlighten you more.

 

As for VBXE, it's a choice between that and SophiaII which I can say has a superb picture, the question that remains is are any of these actually available with all this madness happening. The Sophia has the thing that if your Antic is in a socket, then it's a 2 min install (I don't think there was any soldering, a while ago though) The toughest part is deciding where to make the hole for the Video output (either a DVI plug or HDMI adaptor)

Edited December 28, 2022 by Mclaneinc

[Steril707]

17 hours ago, Mclaneinc said:

 

If it's an XL then best does replacement custom key domes (forget what they are called, not the cap but the bit that does the contact beneath it.) and everyone who has tried them say it makes the keyboard so much better...Some with more knowledge could enlighten you more.

 

As for VBXE, it's a choice between that and SophiaII which I can say has a superb picture, the question that remains is are any of these actually available with all this madness happening. The Sophia has the thing that if your Antic is in a socket, then it's a 2 min install (I don't think there was any soldering, a while ago though) The toughest part is deciding where to make the hole for the Video output (either a DVI plug or HDMI adaptor)

Hey Mclaneinc, thanks for the reply.

 

Will have a look at those domes. Tried to play Zork on my XL on Christmas day, and it was a bit stiff, to say at least. Hope i can find something to get these keys into a better state. 

 

I think the VBXE is still available, and I need something a bit earlier than 2024, so I will try my luck there..

 

Have a great day, mate!

 

[Mclaneinc]

@Steril707 You too..

 

I wish I could remember their name, I know they are on the Best website, problem is that his website is a maze of years old style html. I'll try and find it on there and pass it on. Stiffness / stickyness could be a build up of dust / dead skin etc etc. On keys that seem stiff have you pulled the key top off and given the undersides a polish?

[+DarkLord]

They're called "TT Touch" for the ST version and they're great.

 

I think it's "XE Touch" for the 8bit XE version. Go about half

way down on this page:

 

https://www.best-electronics-ca.com/130xe.htm

 

HTH's. 

 

 

[+Stephen]

3 hours ago, DarkLord said:

They're called "TT Touch" for the ST version and they're great.

 

I think it's "XE Touch" for the 8bit XE version. Go about half

way down on this page:

 

https://www.best-electronics-ca.com/130xe.htm

 

HTH's. 

 

 

Sadly I think those have been out of stock for a while   Shame too - I have upgraded 2 of my 130XEs, and a 520ST with them and the difference was great.  I wish I'd bought a few more sets.

[+DarkLord]

1 hour ago, Stephen said:

Sadly I think those have been out of stock for a while   Shame too - I have upgraded 2 of my 130XEs, and a 520ST with them and the difference was great.  I wish I'd bought a few more sets.

 

Does that apply to the 2nd generation sets Brad was selling as well?

 

I quit buying them some time back because all my Atari's now have the

better keyboards (Mega ST4, Mega STe, STacy,  etc and my Falcon has a

TT Touch kit already installed).

 

Thanks.

 

[+Stephen]

39 minutes ago, DarkLord said:

 

Does that apply to the 2nd generation sets Brad was selling as well?

 

I quit buying them some time back because all my Atari's now have the

better keyboards (Mega ST4, Mega STe, STacy,  etc and my Falcon has a

TT Touch kit already installed).

 

Thanks.

 

Not sure - was going off what I'd heard.  I haven't made an order for quite a long time - sorry.

[Ecernosoft]

On 2/2/2011 at 10:25 AM, Philsan said:

Which Atari 8-bit computer to buy? What do I need to run software? Where to find software? What emulators are available?
I try to answer to those questions objectively and in a manner suitable for newbies or veterans returning to Atari after many years.

Many other answers are in Atari 8-bit computers FAQs.

 

Index

1. Which computer to buy?

2. What do I need to run software?

3. Where to find software?

4. Best homebrews?

5. Emulators?

6. Basic programming?

7. Graphics capabilities

 

1. Which computer to buy?

Historically speaking, Atari 800 is the best one (a milestone, compare it with contemporary 1979 computers!), but if you want a computer compatible with all software, you should take an Atari 800XL or a 130XE (65XE and XEGS are OK too). Their only limitation compared to Atari 800 is that they have two joystick ports instead of four.

Cart port: if you use cartridges, 800XL cart's port position is more comfortable.
Keyboard: important only if you plan to enter a lot of text; many people prefer 800XL keyboards but 5 variants exists (avoid the last variant, Mitsumi).
Memory: 800XL has 64KB, 130XE has 128KB, usuful for few games. Memory can be upgraded with internal or external expansions.
Video ouput: 800XL has RF and composite, 130XE has s-video too. If you have a socketed Atari, with solderless Sophia 2 board you get RGB and DVI output.
Quality: 800XL has a better building quality. Some XL's have all ICs socketed, therefore they are easier to repair and upgrade.
Basic: Important only if you want to program with Atari Basic. Most 800XL have Basic rev. B, 130XE have bug free Basic rev. C. You can replace 800XL Basic rev. B chip with a rev. C. Anyway, if you like Basic programming, nowadays people don't use Atari Basic but Turbo-Basic XL (fast, compatible and compilable), Altirra Basic or the brand-new FastBasic so built-in Atari Basic's revision isn't important.

2. What do I need to run software?

 

CARTRIDGES: you don't need anything apart an Atari 800XL/130XE.
5¼ FLOPPY DISKS: you need a disk drive (Atari 1050 or XF551). To load machine language programs, remember to turn on computer with option key pressed.
TAPES: you need a program recorder (Atari 410, 1010, XC11 or XC12). To load machine language programs, remember to turn on computer with start and option keys pressed, then press play on program recorder and finally press return key.

 

Nowadays all above software has been dumped and these are file format extensions:

ATR: files that are reproductions of floppy disks.

ATX: files that are reproductions of protected floppy discs.

XEX/COM: files that are reproductions of single executables.

CAR/ROM/BIN: files that are reproductions of cartridges.

CAS: files that are reproductions of tapes.

 

The frequent asked question is: "Which is the best multicart to run my games?".

 

Atari computers are not consoles, so games were (and are) released not only in cartridge format but in disk format too.

Moreover, some games need more than 64KB to run.

 

I made a comparison table (last updated 12.02.2022) covering various loading devices:

A8 loading devices.pdf 49.85 kB · 302 downloads

 

There are two other comparison tables:

https://avgcart.tmp.sk/

https://www.wudsn.com/index.php/productions-atari800/tools/thecart

 

Those comparison tables are not easy to understand for newbies, so I'll try to explain.

 

SIO LOADING DEVICES are slower devices that emulate disk drives; they connect to SIO port and load programs like real disk drives.

Considered the fact that all software is available in XEX and ATR formats, these devices load all software.

To run some big games and demos a memory expansion is required.

 

MULTICARTS are faster devices that emulate cartridges.

Some multicarts not only load CAR, they load XEX programs too, therefore they have a good compatibility; but cannot load ATR (some games and many applications are available in ATR format only) or only some of them.

 

But now AVGCart with SIO cable and Side3 with U1MB internal expansion have full ATR compatibility. AVGCart with SIO cable loads CAS too.

Multicarts have the advantage of loading some games that otherwise need memory expansion to run.

 

Conclusions

 

With a cheap SIO2PC-USB (with $6 you can make a SIO2PC-USB or you can link PC and Atari with a breakout board for the FTDI FT232RL USB to serial IC) and a memory expansion you can download 99.9% of the software from a nearby PC, where you can keep all your files, for Atari and emulators.

With the new FujiNet, among many other things, you can download software wirelessly from your PC or Internet.

With multicarts you can quickly load most of the software (especially games) but almost all don't load ATR disk images (for example, Alternate Reality, Seven Cities of Gold, The Dark Crystal cannot be loaded because they are not available on XEX or CAR format). But now AVGCart (if connected to SIO port with the optional cable) and Side3 (together with U1MB internal memory expansion) load ATR too, therefore these are very good options.

 

At the moment AVGCart with SIO cable is the only all-in-one solution.

Compared to other multicarts, as-is it's the only one with full ATR compatibility, compared to SIO devices it let you select and load XEX faster and loads cartridge games (some need a memory expansion to be loaded from SIO devices).

 

3. Where to find software?

You can buy/find software on the Internet or in the real word, the price depends on conditions (loose, boxed, sealed) and rarity, and/or you can download it here:
Atarimania (many screenshots and manuals)
Atari 8-bit Forever
Fandal (unparalleled for demos)
Atarionline (Gry/Games on the left column)
Homesoft (games in XEX and ATR format when XEX isn't available, continually updated and cleaned - no intros, no unpacking delays, no glitches - click on download button on the right, extract zip file and you'll get all games inside A-Z folders)

Pigwa Atari FP Archive 

Mr. Bacardi

Vjetnam 8-bit Atari games archive

 

4. Best homebrews?

 

Dozens of games are released each year.

@ZeroPage Homebrew keeps track of all Atari 8-Bit/5200 games that have either been completed, updated or released: 2022, 2021, 2020, 2019

 

I would try Albert, Assembloids XE, Atari Blast!, Bosconian, Crownland, Dimo's Dungeon, Dimo's Quest New Year Edition, Final Assault, FloB, Gacek, His Dark Majesty, International Karate Enhanced Edition, Last Squadron, Laura, Manic Miner 2016, Pac-Man 2012, Pad, Pang, Prince of Persia, RGB, The Rescue Expedition, Ridiculous Reality, Scramble, Space Harrier, Stunt Car Racer, Time Pilot, Total Eclipse, Yoomp!, to name just a few.

 

Almost all games are released for free (sometimes beautiful collectors editions are available).

You can download them in the "3. Where to find software?" websites.

 

Thanks to MrFish, you can download an homebrew compilation here.

 

5. Emulators?

PC
Altirra (the best emulator for PC)
Atari800
Atari++
Atari800WinPLus
Mac
Atari800MacX
Android
Colleen (official Atari800 port)

XEmu65
Droid800
Atari800
Nintendo DS
PokeyDS

Nintendo DSi

XEGS-DS

Nintendo Wii
WiiXL
Sony PSP
Atari800PSP
PSP Atari

 

6. Basic programming?

 

If you want to start programming Atari computers, the easier and most known language is Turbo-Basic XL. Released by Frank Ostrowski in 1985, it's compatible with built-in Atari Basic but faster, compilable and with additional commands. Here you can find language and two manuals: Turbo-Basic XL.zip  If you would like to develop on PC with that language, I recommend Turban.

In 2017 a new Basic has been released, FastBasic. Almost compatible with Turbo-Basic XL, but faster.

Mad Studio is a good integrated development environment (scroll to find latest version).

If you want to make bitmap images using various peculiar Atari graphics modes, you can use Atari Graphics Studio.

To design player-missile graphics (sprites), you can use SprEd (very easy to use, it supports overlap feature to create a third color when overlapping sprites).

To create music you can use Raster Music Tracker, made by Radek Sterba (we miss you).

To change character set you can use Atari FontMaker or Atari Font Creator.

 

Folks in the 8-bit programming subforum gladly answer questions.

 

7. Graphic capabilities

 

If you want to see A8 machines graphics capabilities, check out Images generated by Rastaconverter topic.

Thanks!

 

When I get older, I think I might get an atari 8bit. This is perfect. Probably an 800xl or a 130xe.

[Beeblebrox]

Happy new year all. 

@Steril707

 

Edit: one thing to add. S-video output via the existing din5 jack on the 600XL is very good. All that is needed is chroma hooked up, which is very easy and costs next to nothing. A few wires and a resistor and optional capacitor. Plus removing the c109 cap from the pcb will sharpen the image. Stock video on the 600XL is one of the best out of all A8's in my experience. Many others share this view having read about it over the years. 

 

 

My pennies worth as I've installed VBXE, Sophia, Sophia 2 in both XL and XE machines. 

 

If you have a fully socketed 600XL which is the norm if Hong Kong made, then Sophia 2 is by far the easiest but you'll need a monitor with DVI. Only spanner in the works is Sophia 2 isn't available due to the global chip shortage. (I was lucky enough to source one 2nd hand). 

 

Next is UAV which will give you a great pic. That is sourced from the US from the brewing academy but will need a little bit of soldering. 

 

VBXE is great and I've installed it in an 800XL as well as a 65XE, but as you say it is not something you'd be comfortable doing so I'd get someone else (Lotharek or FJC), to do it for you. I use the Din13 installed in place of the RF module on the pcb and a dedicated Din13 to scart Cool novelties branded cable to hook it up to my LG LCD and the image quality is great. Plus you have the ability to then view VBXE content. 

 

Here is FJC's install guide to VBXE in an 800XL.

https://youtu.be/UKS5MJ0AdEU

 

Shanti's amazing Gacek, (Bombjack), VBXE playing below off RGB:

 

Next up is UGV, which is new to me but something I have just ordered for my 130XE with U1MB. I plan to hook the output to the existing din5. 

 

https://ataribits.weebly.com/ugv.html

I managed quite by accident to find one on Ebay UK for a very reasonable price: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/266062340564

 

Plug and play to a degree (if your 600XL is socketed), and from the looks of it fairly minimal solder work. As I say very cheap by comparison. 

 

"This is Meant to Replace Your Stock Atari Video...
Due to a non-buffered color connection to GTIA, the stock video will not look good with the UGV installed, and especially if the VGATE function is enabled. Therefore it is meant to entirely replace the stock video coming out of your Atari. Since the UGV is all about getting High Quality video output, there is no real sacrifice in no longer using the original stock video circuits. In fact it just makes good sense to cut loose the original video connections going to the A/V jack, and instead route the UGV video outputs to that same jack."

 

 

As for keyboard some of the recommendations above sound great, and you can also just try and source a broken 800XL or 600XL which has an ALPS made keyboard, (see below). They are great. There are 4 x 800XL(600XL) keyboard variants and some are awful and have keys that stick like crazy.

 

See here which is a great guide:

 

 

Edited January 1 by Beeblebrox

[SviRu]

On 1/17/2022 at 2:09 PM, mimo said:

Most of the original back catalogue will run on a 48K 800.
AVG cart is a great solution, but will need the cart port flap leaving open as you suggest.
Other options would be SDrive-max or one of the other flavours of SDrive, I think you will need to power the SDrive-max externally though. SIO2PC is pretty cheap and cheerful but you will be tethered to a PC of some description 
Fujinet is another alternative but I have never used one of these, again I think it will need external power on the 800
Incognito is a great mod for the 800, but may be a step to far at the moment if you are just getting a feel for the Atari 8bit computers 

Hi! I found your answer - I wanted to ask the same. I just bought 800 with 48kb of ram. IF I buy SDDRIVE MAX or SIO2SD can I count on that it will work? Games like boulder dash/river raid etc? Do I need BASIC cartridge in internal slot of 800 to run? Or maybe I should buy SIDE or Ultimate cart???  I'm also looking for an answer to this question - atari 800  5,5 mm/2,1 mm or  5,5 mm/2,5 mm power plug from 9v ac PSU?

Edited March 9 by SviRu

[iscariot]

I've had the avg cart for awhile now and I've got nothing but good things to say about it.  I've yet to have any issues with it at all.  I still haven't really gotten hdd enjoying working but that's mostly my fault for not trying hard enough