Troy_Whelan Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 That is basically it. I 'knew' that people would lobby for a box after the game was out. My terms were simple. Someone buys 50 copies at full price all at once, in advance. I didn't expect anyone to take the risk. I certainly wasn't prepared to. The 'fans' are causing this release to be done 'CIB'. I wasn't going to spend the money. It makes sense that the price of a cart ($40) plus the cost of an upgrade would be about the same as a 'complete in box' copy of the game. People who bought the game 'cart only' and only care to play the game, don't have to buy the box/overlays/manual. It is up to them. If you read my message to BBWW in another thread, you will understand how this release happened, and why things happened like they did. I can re-post it here is need be. No need to re-post anything as I get it. Unfortunately not everyone is understanding what I am saying. The ONLY thing I am saying is that it would have been nice if the cart shell color or the cart label was different between the cart only version and the CIB version. That is it. Someway to distinguish between the two. I understand HOW we got here and frankly it does not matter. What matters is WHAT unfolds. I think it would be fairly easy, and well received, to simply have a unique cart label for the CIB release so that once opened they are visually different. If too late now, fine. I am just suggesting to keep it in mind if the situation arises again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeM_Intellivision Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 Troy I understand what you are saying and maybe something to be considered if we ever have another cart only release. Hopefully it can be avoided all together by doing only CIB Games as many, many people are only going to ask for them after the fact anyway and that can't be denied. I also understand financial risks may need to be shared in order to make this doable. Best regards all. Joe. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Games For Your Intellivision Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 No need to re-post anything as I get it. Unfortunately not everyone is understanding what I am saying. The ONLY thing I am saying is that it would have been nice if the cart shell color or the cart label was different between the cart only version and the CIB version. That is it. Someway to distinguish between the two. I understand HOW we got here and frankly it does not matter. What matters is WHAT unfolds. I think it would be fairly easy, and well received, to simply have a unique cart label for the CIB release so that once opened they are visually different. If too late now, fine. I am just suggesting to keep it in mind if the situation arises again. Unless you expect me to colour a shell with a magic marker, I don't know how to do it inexpensively. I gave extra cart stickers to everyone (They won't be included in CIB releases) because I had to print so many of them to get decent quality. These stickers weren't printed on an ink jet printer. Good Deal Games wants me to make something for them, and I had to tell them that it would cost a couple of hundred bucks for a cart sticker.......'but I only want 20-30'......my response....'exactly!' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy_Whelan Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 Unless you expect me to colour a shell with a magic marker, I don't know how to do it inexpensively. I gave extra cart stickers to everyone (They won't be included in CIB releases) because I had to print so many of them to get decent quality. These stickers weren't printed on an ink jet printer. Good Deal Games wants me to make something for them, and I had to tell them that it would cost a couple of hundred bucks for a cart sticker.......'but I only want 20-30'......my response....'exactly!' Time for me to just leave this alone as it seems you and I are having two completely different conversations. It seems completely rational to me to simply change the background font on labels that have yet to be printed and there is no added cost as you have to print labels anyway; no added cost as you are not redesigning the label just changing the background color - and even if the cost went up a dollar or two for each CIB version, so what. Again - this is a suggestion for efforts going forward and I keep suggesting inexpensive ways to do this so no need for you to color the shells with a magic marker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intymike Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 (edited) Time for me to just leave this alone as it seems you and I are having two completely different conversations. It seems completely rational to me to simply change the background font on labels that have yet to be printed and there is no added cost as you have to print labels anyway; no added cost as you are not redesigning the label just changing the background color - and even if the cost went up a dollar or two for each CIB version, so what. Again - this is a suggestion for efforts going forward and I keep suggesting inexpensive ways to do this so no need for you to color the shells with a magic marker. What's the problem? You will not get new buyers with different editions. Only the hoarders will buy any different version of a game again and again. Edited May 11, 2014 by Intymike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+JasonlikesINTV Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 Time for me to just leave this alone as it seems you and I are having two completely different conversations. It seems completely rational to me to simply change the background font on labels that have yet to be printed and there is no added cost as you have to print labels anyway; no added cost as you are not redesigning the label just changing the background color - and even if the cost went up a dollar or two for each CIB version, so what. Again - this is a suggestion for efforts going forward and I keep suggesting inexpensive ways to do this so no need for you to color the shells with a magic marker. I'm guessing that William printed enough labels on the first (and only) run, that he has enough for all remaining orders. A second run of cart labels would only add more cost to an already pricey endeavor ...one that barely happened in the first place. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+intvsteve Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 From the little investigation I've done for this sort of thing, it's common that it costs the same -- exactly the same -- to print 50 or 500 of things like this. So even a simple change isn't feasible because you've got a couple hundred extras already. Not saying that's the case here, but I expect it to be. The costs of this kind of operation can easily escalate when you have to get 500 of this, 1000 of that, and only sell 200. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Games For Your Intellivision Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 If I changed the background colour, it would cost me another $150 bucks I've got hundreds of Old School stickers left over from the 'cart only' run. Send me $150 and I'll print it with a different colour. $200, and I'll do a whole new design. Not interested? Neither am I. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy_Whelan Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 If I changed the background colour, it would cost me another $150 bucks I've got hundreds of Old School stickers left over from the 'cart only' run. Send me $150 and I'll print it with a different colour. $200, and I'll do a whole new design. Not interested? Neither am I. Fine, not sure why there is such an attitude. I am a bit surprised that you printed hundreds of labels for a game you expected to sell only a handful of cart only versions. I expected that you had NO MORE LABELS as you sold 120 carts, hence the suggestions/questions I was making; trying to be helpful while looking out for the gamers/collectors/hoarders that bought the cart only, then the upgrade kit; trying to keep it unique from the CIB version that would not have existed if we had not bought the cart only version. Kind of ironic when you think about it, and yes I was trying to get you to think about it. Others have commented publicly in this thread and privately about how they bought the cart as it was a unique collectors item, not because they thought it would be part of an open package costing the same as a sealed package with no obvious benefit for early supporters. Lesson learned for me - speak up when announcing a purchase, otherwise keep my thoughts to myself as there is not a receptive audience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy_Whelan Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 What's the problem? You will not get new buyers with different editions. Only the hoarders will buy any different version of a game again and again. The problem is about 40 - 60 of us supported the "cart only"effort as it was a cool and unique collectors item, only to find out later that the same cart (with 1 added credit) would be produced endlessly in a sealed CIB version so soon after the cart only version. If I was in that position, I would have wanted to keep my early supporters happy first then new customers second. Regardless of gamers, collectors, or hoarders, I think everyone wants to know their purchase was worthwhile and money well spent. We can all learn from this and I am simply suggesting that we not experience this in the same way again. Early supporters should feel that money simply went to support the overall effort and the late supporters ended up with a better product. Early supporters should feel like they got a unique one-of-a-kind item and late supporters should feel like they got an awesome sealed CIB game. Win-win situation - that is what I am trying to get people to see and consider going forward. A way for us to want to support sellers as we feel the support is justified and a way for late supporters to feel like they still got something very nice without negating the early supporters. Hopefully that explains my view; looking out for seller/gamer/collector/hoarder/early supporter/late supporter in a way that works for all. I would expect that the CIB version would cost more that the "open"version as that is how it works in every electronic store I have even been in, so there should not be a major concern regarding a unique label. People can disagree if they choose and support will go down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+intvsteve Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 Like I mentioned above, Troy. Stuff like this often has to be printed in larger batches than would ever sell, like 500 or 1000, or the printer won't even do the job. If you have to buy 500 but only sell 100, you only have a few ways to cover those costs. Or you don't even print one, or you drastically cut quality. Let's say the printer requires a minimum of 500, that's a fixed cost to Elektronite, whether 50 or 500 copies sell. Maybe that's getting too much into how the sausage is made, but that's often how it works for this kind of thing. Sure, it would be cool if it was easy to customize batches of these things, but realistically you have to be operating either everything hand-made or a gigantic enterprise that can automate it. It's just really tough for smaller operations to manage it because of the costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+SoulBuster Posted May 11, 2014 Author Share Posted May 11, 2014 Early supporters should feel like they got a unique one-of-a-kind item and late supporters should feel like they got an awesome sealed CIB game. You nailed it! This is exactly how I feel about my cart only release that is now going to reside in a box. I did get a unique one-of-a-kind item. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy_Whelan Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 Like I mentioned above, Troy. Stuff like this often has to be printed in larger batches than would ever sell, like 500 or 1000, or the printer won't even do the job. If you have to buy 500 but only sell 100, you only have a few ways to cover those costs. Or you don't even print one, or you drastically cut quality. Let's say the printer requires a minimum of 500, that's a fixed cost to Elektronite, whether 50 or 500 copies sell. Maybe that's getting too much into how the sausage is made, but that's often how it works for this kind of thing. Sure, it would be cool if it was easy to customize batches of these things, but realistically you have to be operating either everything hand-made or a gigantic enterprise that can automate it. It's just really tough for smaller operations to manage it because of the costs. Yes, I get that. Gamester81 somehow had smaller volumes of label types, and maybe he just ate the cost or maybe he did this in a cost effective way. Not looking to debate this endlessly, just suggesting to reach out to other game producers to gain insight and maybe learn a trick or two, perhaps learn of a new contact, perhaps find a way to satisfy all without introducing new costs. Just suggesting, but obviously people will do whatever they want to do. If it was me, I would want to know all options available to me especially regarding cost efficiencies and customer satisfaction. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMonroe Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Payment sent for #76 & #77. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mphokie Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Please put me down for 2 upgrade kits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMUalum Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Okay, I've decided to get off the fence and make a decision, please put me down for # 89. (Looks like that one s still available.) Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Games For Your Intellivision Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 (edited) Fine, not sure why there is such an attitude. I am a bit surprised that you printed hundreds of labels for a game you expected to sell only a handful of cart only versions. I expected that you had NO MORE LABELS as you sold 120 carts, hence the suggestions/questions I was making; trying to be helpful while looking out for the gamers/collectors/hoarders that bought the cart only, then the upgrade kit; trying to keep it unique from the CIB version that would not have existed if we had not bought the cart only version. Kind of ironic when you think about it, and yes I was trying to get you to think about it. Others have commented publicly in this thread and privately about how they bought the cart as it was a unique collectors item, not because they thought it would be part of an open package costing the same as a sealed package with no obvious benefit for early supporters. Lesson learned for me - speak up when announcing a purchase, otherwise keep my thoughts to myself as there is not a receptive audience. It isn't 'attitude' It is reality. 1 sticker costs the same as 750.....so, why would I ask them to print only 150? There was nothing sinister about it. The CIB version would not have existed if Soulbuster had not dropped thousands in cold hard cash on 50 copies. Blame him. If he had not done it, I could have just tossed the extra labels in the garbage. I have thought about it, and I am going to reuse the labels I printed, because I don't want to drop another $150 on printing. You are welcome to send me $150 to do another print run, and make your loose copies 'unique'. Do some research into professional quality printing. I am not willing to increase the cost to everyone who buys the CIB version so you can have a visibly unique version. The loose version IS unique....it will have a different ROM. Edited May 12, 2014 by Games For Your Intellivision Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HunterZero Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Some materials. The box lines are subject to change. I just got darker ones put in to see how they compared to White.....and White will clash with the White Elektronite logo on the inside flap....might go silver, or white, or another colour. Probably too late to change, but - should the weapon of choice be a chalk duster or eraser, rather than a chalk brush? - J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Games For Your Intellivision Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Probably too late to change, but - should the weapon of choice be a chalk duster or eraser, rather than a chalk brush? - J Not too late, but there is nothing wrong with 'Chalk Brush' in Standard Canadian English as far as I know. It is a Canadian game. Written and manufactured in Canada :-) I've used 'eraser' but 'chalk brush' sounds better with regards to the game in my opinion. What do they say in OZ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+intvsteve Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 (edited) Not too late, but there is nothing wrong with 'Chalk Brush' in Standard Canadian English as far as I know. It is a Canadian game. Written and manufactured in Canada :-) I've used 'eraser' but 'chalk brush' sounds better with regards to the game in my opinion. What do they say in OZ? Ah, here we have the potential, for someone really ambitious, to localize the game! (er. localise ) We'll have the dual-language French-English for Quebec, with "chalk brush", the one for the British English with "rubber" (Rev, cmart, calm down!), and the good ol' 'Merican 'Eraser'. Now, who's up for getting on that? <ducks for cover. Just havin' some fun guys! /> Edited May 12, 2014 by intvsteve 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Games For Your Intellivision Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Us Canadians have no idea what is 'proper' as we use a lot of British and American spelling and phrases, mixing them up and coming up with our own in a lot of cases :-) I learned with with 'Rec Room' in Paddle Party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HunterZero Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 What do they say in OZ? Blackboard duster. - J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+intvsteve Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Blackboard duster. - J Sounds like a sports car. Or a rock band. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariBuff Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 (edited) SoulBuster, please put me on the list for the upgrade kit as well. Edited May 12, 2014 by AtariBuff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mylok Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Payment sent for #9, #51 and one upgrade kit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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