The 7800GD (New 7800 Flash Cartridge?)

[+rdemming]

1 hour ago, DrVenkman said:

Again, nope. S-video already eliminates composite artifacting, which ruins the image for some early A8 titles which were designed with Gr.8 artifacting in mind, and it changes the appearance of 7800 games like Tower Topper. Remember, these games were intended to be displayed on low- and mid-range consumer TVs through RF or maybe composite. I understand many people ave fallen under the sway of the Cult of RGB, but not everything needs it or benefits from it.

Yes, you are right. That is a disadvantage of using RGB (and S-video). On the Atari 8-bit, there were quite a few NTSC titles depending on artifacting but on the 7800, Tower Toppler is the only one I can think of (correct me if I'm wrong).

 

On PAL machines, artifacting works differently than on NTSC so on PAL it was not really used to add colors. A long time ago, I did some comparisons of composite/s-video/RGB on a PAL Atari XE with VBXE card showing various screenshots on those output modes:

One Atari 8-bit game where I found that PAL artifacting was adding to the game, was Amaurote. Here the artifacting causes some kind of moire color pattern which you don't see with RGB. Luckily I have a RGB/composite input switch on my monitor so I can just flick a switch to switch to composite input for games that benefit from artifacting 😊

 

Robert

[Trebor]

7 hours ago, rdemming said:

Yes, you are right. That is a disadvantage of using RGB (and S-video). On the Atari 8-bit, there were quite a few NTSC titles depending on artifacting but on the 7800, Tower Toppler is the only one I can think of (correct me if I'm wrong).

Jinks.  Not nearly as extensively as Tower Toppler, but there are a few pieces in the game that rely on it. 

The Status/Score screen is one of the more noticeable places:

 

RGB:

 

Composite:

 

[KrunchyTC]

On 5/28/2023 at 7:14 AM, Trebor said:

To emphasize, indeed the RGB palettes being used, like A7800, provide output colors/hues as originally intended by the original hardware and software developers.

For example, utilizing the NTSC Hue $1x range, provides a hue in the gold/goldenrod spectrum, as typically seen under a CRT, not green/chartreuse spectrum, as typically seen under a LCD.

Games such as BasketBrawl, Commando, Pole Position II, and others, demonstrate this very significant difference.

Even when connected to a modern TV, the 7800GD RGB output will produce colors as if connected to a CRT.

Is that why 7800 games look greenish when connected directly to an LCD? 

[+DrVenkman]

16 minutes ago, KrunchyTC said:

Is that why 7800 games look greenish when connected directly to an LCD? 

Exactly. Boot up Ballblazer on a CRT and then an LCD - the difference in hue on the Lucasfilm logo as soon as the game starts up is striking.

[Trebor]

1 hour ago, KrunchyTC said:

Is that why 7800 games look greenish when connected directly to an LCD? 

Indeed.  Check the screenshot comparisons for BasketBrawl, Commando, Pole Position II, quoted in your post.  

[KrunchyTC]

21 minutes ago, Trebor said:

Indeed.  Check the screenshot comparisons for BasketBrawl, Commando, Pole Position II, quoted in your post.  

Yup mine looks pretty close to the shots on the far right, I was afraid my 7800's RF output was dying lol I was messing with the tint on my TV.

[KrunchyTC]

Tried to remedy the green picture issue by connecting it through a VCR so I could send it through an upscaler, and fix the colors, and while it made the image brighter, it still looks green, and the imagine seems to go "out of sync" or something every 20 seconds or so.

Edited May 30, 2023 by KrunchyTC

[SainT]

11 hours ago, Trebor said:

Jinks.  Not nearly as extensively as Tower Toppler, but there are a few pieces in the game that rely on it. 

The Status/Score screen is one of the more noticeable places:

 

If I can make space in the FPGA (it's currently very very full!) I wanted to add a composite filter option as well for those games which use it. In general games look immeasurably better with RGB, but there are some which obviously take advantage of artifacting.

[Trebor]

16 hours ago, SainT said:

If I can make space in the FPGA (it's currently very very full!) I wanted to add a composite filter option as well for those games which use it. In general games look immeasurably better with RGB, but there are some which obviously take advantage of artifacting.

FWIW, if just a 'Composite Blend' feature was present, it would definitely suffice.  The FPGA core Atari7800_MiSTer has implemented this nicely by @Kitrinx.  It is a nice balance between trying to cram a slew of composite features (I.E. Fringing, Blending, Bleeding, Artifacting), or having nothing, with providing just the Blending aspect:

 

Atari7800_MiSTer RGB:

 

Atari7800_MiSTer Composite Blend:

 

Click on each pic to see the full size to really notice the difference. 

 

Not discouraging implementing all composite elements; however, with space being as tight as is currently, and also considering how resource hungry such a feature may be, thought mentioning having a 'composite blend' togglable option suffices for the most part.

[Jetboot Jack]

1 minute ago, Trebor said:

FWIW, if just a 'Composite Blend' feature was present, it would definitely suffice.  The FPGA core Atari7800_MiSTer has implemented this nicely by @Kitrinx.  It is a nice balance between trying to cramming a slew of options (I.E. Fringing, Blending, Bleeding, Artifacting), or having nothing, with providing just the Blending aspect:

 

Wow - Tower Toppler really is ugly on the 7800, although not quiet as grim as the XEGS version which is a total train-wreck!

 

Not that this in anyway is a comment on the composite blend feature for the 7800GD - that would be great!

 

sTeVE

[Trebor]

On 5/30/2023 at 7:21 AM, Jetboot Jack said:

Wow - Tower Toppler really is ugly on the 7800, although not quiet as grim as the XEGS version which is a total train-wreck!

Eh, wouldn't judge by a couple of still images from the early part of the first tower.  Other towers, and especially the bonus round, is much more livelier with color and the graphic details are actually quite excellent.

It may be better to watch a playthrough to see the entire game. 

[Jetboot Jack]

@Trebor - I have played it on XEGS, and just now on 7800 too - and whilst the bonus stage is better for sure, both versions are dreadful looking and playing (and in the XEGS case slow) compared to the original version IMHO...

 

sTeVE

Edited May 30, 2023 by Jetboot Jack

[Trebor]

1 minute ago, Jetboot Jack said:

@Trebor - I have played it on XEGS, and now on 7800 too - and whilst the bonus stage is better, both versions are dreadful looking and playing (and in the XEGS case slow) compared to the original version...

Original version - meaning Nebulus under the Amiga/Atari ST, absolutely agree, relative to the 16/32-bit computer versions, it will pale in comparison.

As for an 8-bit console version, arguably, it is the best looking.

[SainT]

1 hour ago, Trebor said:

FWIW, if just a 'Composite Blend' feature was present, it would definitely suffice.  The FPGA core Atari7800_MiSTer has implemented this nicely by @Kitrinx.  It is a nice balance between trying to cram a slew of composite features (I.E. Fringing, Blending, Bleeding, Artifacting), or having nothing, with providing just the Blending aspect:

 

I definitely like the blend idea. This should be something that is easy to add (if we're just pixel blending horizontal neighbors) and have switchable in the video options. Nice.

[Jetboot Jack]

1 hour ago, Trebor said:

Original version - meaning Nebulus under the Amiga/Atari ST, absolutely agree, relative to the 16/32-bit computer versions, it will pale in comparison.

As for an 8-bit console version, arguably, it is the best looking.

The original was on C64 - I think it moves, sounds and plays exceptionally well!

 

sTeVE

Edited May 30, 2023 by Jetboot Jack

[SainT]

 

[Jetboot Jack]

Very nice!

 

sTeVE

[SainT]

To enable this feature automatically for games which require it I'm going to use the composite flag in the header. @Trebor I'll send over updated A78's for the games affected. It may just be Tower Toppler that really needs it, the rest are largely down to user preference.

[Trebor]

2 hours ago, SainT said:

To enable this feature automatically for games which require it I'm going to use the composite flag in the header. @Trebor I'll send over updated A78's for the games affected. It may just be Tower Toppler that really needs it, the rest are largely down to user preference.

Great minds... 

 

I actually set the flag for both Tower Toppler and Jinks.

There are a few in round items for Jinks that benefit from this too in addition to the status and score screen. 

[+rdemming]

6 hours ago, Trebor said:

Great minds... 

 

I actually updated this for both Tower Toppler and Jinks. 

There are some in round items for Jinks that benefit from this too in addition to the status and score screen. 

What about Rikki & Vikki? The intro sequence and various parts of the in-game graphics are using vertical lines. On my PAL composite 7800, colors that are similar blend to appear as a color in between (as in the intro sequence). But with colors that are farther apart, I still see the vertical lines (like the waterfalls). How is this on NTSC?

 

Robert

[SainT]

 

With blend the waterfalls are a solid colour. 

Edited May 31, 2023 by SainT

[Trebor]

7 hours ago, rdemming said:

What about Rikki & Vikki? The intro sequence and various parts of the in-game graphics are using vertical lines. On my PAL composite 7800, colors that are similar blend to appear as a color in between (as in the intro sequence). But with colors that are farther apart, I still see the vertical lines (like the waterfalls). How is this on NTSC?

 

Robert

Rikki & Vikki indeed benefits too and has the flag added.  The same vertical lines issue in areas (I.E. waterfalls, intro/cut scenes) under NTSC as well, once it is displayed via S-Video or higher.

 

A moot point for the PROPack though, as a ROM for public distribution has not been made available by the developer/publisher.  A valid ROM binary (*.a78 file) can be acquired (created) from the product purchased though.  Assistance with that process is available in the respective thread.  A breakdown of all included files with purchase is present as well in the same thread.

 

Bare in mind, for v4 header compliance, it will require processing through the 7800header tool as well.

[+DrVenkman]

8 minutes ago, Trebor said:

The same vertical lines issue in areas (I.E. waterfalls, intro/cut scenes) under NTSC as well, once it is displayed via S-Video or higher.

Yep.

 

[+sramirez2008]

😉

[+DrVenkman]

1 minute ago, sramirez2008 said:

😉

Hmmph.