Jinks Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 I think the game needs a ton of more rondomness to slow the speed runs down. Make it so every room with obstacles is impossible to clear without watching the patterns. Just my suggestion. Can be a run through game too.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 3 hours ago, Jinks said: I think the game needs a ton of more rondomness to slow the speed runs down. Make it so every room with obstacles is impossible to clear without watching the patterns. Just my suggestion. Can be a run through game too.. First and foremost, I think this game is fantastic. It is very much a lot of fun. There is significant value with the above statements though. While I love testing and seeing everything with such openness, there is concern too that we are up to nearly 50 rooms, where the goal is ~100, and we're both seeing and ultimately playing through the entire game before it even finishes. Unsure what the final game will be like, perhaps similar to a "mirrored" castle in Castlevania, once completing the game's ~100 rooms, you playthrough all the rooms again, in reverse order and everything is unlocked now. The challenge is harder, enemies changed up, or board layouts altered somewhat. Then again, even if it is just a reset of all enemies - this time with no health made available, would add an entire new layer to the game and its challenge. Plus, everything remembered as being in an order one way, the mind would also have to learn doing much of it backwards...it would become truly knowing a game forward and backwards. It's your baby, vhzc, and certainly many games that were not necessarily intended to be a 'run through' game can be one with enough practice; maybe though, some randomness would not be a bad thing either; if not, that is understandable, and this is a day one buy regardless. Keep up the great work. The attention to detail is fantastic and wonderfully done. Thank you for the continued development. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+-^CrossBow^- Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 11 hours ago, Trebor said: First and foremost, I think this game is fantastic. It is very much a lot of fun. It's your baby, vhzc, and certainly many games that were not necessarily intended to be a 'run through' game can be one with enough practice; maybe though, some randomness would not be a bad thing either; if not, that is understandable, and this is a day one buy regardless. Keep up the great work. The attention to detail is fantastic and wonderfully done. Thank you for the continued development. The game is a lot of fun and I actually didn't initially approach the game as a speed run type game. That only happened when I was told that my times happen to be pretty good. That then put me into 10 year old me trying to find ways to shortcut through levels or get through them as quickly as possible. Both Pitfall games on the 2600 were designed with this mechanic. I also used to try and get through the various levels of Adventure and Haunted House in similar ways. So while this game might not have initially been intended for speed running, the fact that he has added a timer would state otherwise. Also, it has been very interesting to find patterns on each screen to get through them quickly since the timing on each room is reset upon entering the room. I've found myself just purposely going back and forth in the same room to find ways to clear through it as quickly as possible. The only issue I see people having with a game like this, is that they are concerned about the replay-ability of such a game and the value of the game if someone is able to get through the entire game in 10min or so? This isn't a unique thing, both Skateboardin' games the one for the 2600 and the 7800 are designed to be done and over with within about 5m or less? I honestly thought both of those games were pretty cool back in the day and always had fun timing things just perfect to clear through them as quickly as possible. So my point to all of this, is that there is a place for games like this and honestly any game, especially a platformer, becomes a good candidate for speed running just for the fun of it. But you know what? I won't post any more of my times on any future betas. I've already not provided any video of my Beta6 runs to keep the new stuff a surprise for those that might also be trying it out in emulation. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gambler172 Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 Hi V made it too.....not as fast,but i had a lot of fun ? It works really well on my Concerto.... Cannot wait for beta 7 ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vhzc Posted July 25, 2020 Author Share Posted July 25, 2020 17 hours ago, Jinks said: I think the game needs a ton of more rondomness to slow the speed runs down. Make it so every room with obstacles is impossible to clear without watching the patterns. Just my suggestion. Can be a run through game too.. I have no issues with people speedrunning, since the game has not score system and a score system doesn't make much sense in platforms, trying to get a better time is a good incentive for replay. I am not really a fan of randomness on platforms because that could cause cheap deaths and my game design policy is every in game death have to be player's fault, not a luck thing. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+sramirez2008 Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 8 minutes ago, vhzc said: every in game death have to be player's fault, not a luck thing ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gambler172 Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 14 minutes ago, sramirez2008 said: ? Right said ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 Cheap deaths suck. I was thinking random movements that have a pattern. Each time is different. You have to learn the pattern or risk dying to try and get your fast time. It is great the way it is. Was just an idea. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 4 hours ago, vhzc said: I have no issues with people speedrunning, since the game has not score system and a score system doesn't make much sense in platforms, trying to get a better time is a good incentive for replay. I am not really a fan of randomness on platforms because that could cause cheap deaths and my game design policy is every in game death have to be player's fault, not a luck thing. Sorry, didn't mean to give the impression of wanting to set up cheap deaths; perhaps controlled randomness is a better way to describe it. Not a fan of luck either, but player skill and strategy. Nonetheless, just a thought. Looking forward to the continued developments. ? 7 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said: I also used to try and get through the various levels of Adventure and Haunted House in similar ways. Definitely, the enemies in Haunted House - ghost, bat, and tarantula, are excellent examples of controlled randomness. They are not in the same spot all the time, yet have an expected behavior and movement pattern that can be learned. What the player does and where the player goes to avoid them will differ, depending on their position and/or the current objective for that particular room or floor. ? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vhzc Posted July 25, 2020 Author Share Posted July 25, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Jinks said: Cheap deaths suck. I was thinking random movements that have a pattern. Each time is different. You have to learn the pattern or risk dying to try and get your fast time. It is great the way it is. Was just an idea. 45 minutes ago, Trebor said: Sorry, didn't mean to give the impression of wanting to set up cheap deaths; perhaps controlled randomness is a better way to describe it. Not a fan of luck either, but player skill and strategy. Nonetheless, just a thought. Looking forward to the continued developments. ? I totally understand your point and I have used controlled randomness in other games , but simply I think is tricky and risky to implement in platformers and metroidvanias and I think that is the reason why is not common in that genres. The original Knight Guy had some and I was not too happy with the results. having said that I think controlled randomness could be maybe implemented in boss fights, bosses with more that just one type of attack (and the time needed to anticipate it) could give more variety without being unfair. Edited July 25, 2020 by vhzc 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NRV Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 Not trying to influence your opinion, I think both options are valid, but I just wanted to add a vote for some "mild" randomness. Probably one of the extreme examples for this is something like Spelunky (or Rogue Legacy for metroidvanias), and for sure that have some epic speed runs In my case, when I do any type of game I end testing it so much, that I feel forced to add some kind of randomization, so it still feels fun down the way. Without changing the order of rooms, I have experimented with changing the starting direction of the enemies, changing slightly the speed of some enemies and obstacles, adding a small random delay to the start of some periodic events, all with the intention that the player don't only memorize every pattern, but has to adapt to the small changes. Anyway, whatever you do is going to be a great game ? Saludos vecino. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vhzc Posted July 27, 2020 Author Share Posted July 27, 2020 Preparing some aquatic levels. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted July 27, 2020 Share Posted July 27, 2020 12 minutes ago, vhzc said: Preparing some aquatic levels. ? Fantastic! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+sramirez2008 Posted July 27, 2020 Share Posted July 27, 2020 (edited) 23 minutes ago, vhzc said: Preparing some aquatic levels. Loving it. The updates to the HUD look good and I can't wait to battle the Octopus, er, algae looking enemy.? Edited July 27, 2020 by sramirez2008 er, algae 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vhzc Posted July 27, 2020 Author Share Posted July 27, 2020 4 minutes ago, sramirez2008 said: Loving it. The updates to the HUD look good and I can't wait to battle the Octopus looking enemy. Thanks, but sadly I have to say that is not an octupus enemy, is just an algae. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+sramirez2008 Posted July 27, 2020 Share Posted July 27, 2020 3 minutes ago, vhzc said: Thanks, but sadly I have to say that is not an octupus enemy, is just an algae. Oops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted July 27, 2020 Share Posted July 27, 2020 6 minutes ago, vhzc said: Thanks, but sadly I have to say that is not an octupus enemy, is just an algae. ? Somebody's pool castle needs cleaning. ? Pool Boy In Low Res World... 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted July 27, 2020 Share Posted July 27, 2020 That aqauatic level looks awesome! ..Al 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevEng Posted July 27, 2020 Share Posted July 27, 2020 So cool. I love where you're going with this. ? @vhzc, people will make suggestions for this game, mostly because it's already so great. Here's mine... it would be cool to have enemies that harass you on multiple screens, until you take care of them. e.g. you "accidentally" free a bat or dragon that swoops down on certain screens. Or a teleporting wizard that appears after you open his chest, and teleports to follow you through the screens, shooting fireballs or whatever. This NPC'ish element could add some challenge and variety to the backtracking. Or don't, and just follow your muse. It's steering you well here. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vhzc Posted July 27, 2020 Author Share Posted July 27, 2020 18 minutes ago, sramirez2008 said: Oops. But not despair. There is an octopus in the making. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+sramirez2008 Posted July 27, 2020 Share Posted July 27, 2020 3 minutes ago, vhzc said: But not despair. There is an octopus in the making. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vhzc Posted July 27, 2020 Author Share Posted July 27, 2020 3 minutes ago, RevEng said: So cool. I love where you're going with this. ? @vhzc, people will make suggestions for this game, mostly because it's already so great. Here's mine... it would be cool to have enemies that harass you on multiple screens, until you take care of them. e.g. you "accidentally" free a bat or dragon that swoops down on certain screens. Or a teleporting wizard that appears after you open his chest, and teleports to follow you through the screens, shooting fireballs or whatever. This NPC'ish element could add some challenge and variety to the backtracking. Or don't, and just follow you're muse. It's steering you well here. Maybe an evil shadow... 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+-^CrossBow^- Posted July 27, 2020 Share Posted July 27, 2020 2 hours ago, vhzc said: Maybe an evil shadow... Ah Prince of Persia style ehh? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlidellMan Posted July 27, 2020 Share Posted July 27, 2020 Besides the octopus, do you have any more aquatic enemy plans? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Karl G Posted July 27, 2020 Share Posted July 27, 2020 2 hours ago, SlidellMan said: Besides the octopus, do you have any more aquatic enemy plans? Ill-tempered algae, perhaps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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