Intellivision Amico’s trademark changed to ‘abandoned’

[MrBeefy]

2 minutes ago, Rev said:

Yep. Cant have it both ways. Either the backend/OS was completed or not.  We all know it wasnt. Is it now, 2 years later after Amico was supposed to be in actual production/manufacturing?   Who knows. 
 

Just take that in for a minute. 
 

Amico should of been on the assembly line just about TWO YEARS ago. July-ish 2020 to meet the 10/10/2020 launch.

 

Many other consoles have released, Evercade is working on their 3rd console now. 

Yup totally. They know right now if they can get FEs out or not. Which means 2022 is out. So you are looking at 2023. Which is also funny because their not-games were sold in 2021. 

 

Total desperate preying money grab on people who they knew they wouldn't be able to deliver a console too.

4 minutes ago, Rev said:

Well one was that crowdfunding wasnt going to be used. 

Dude there are too many to list.

 

1. Special 2D tech

2. No crowdfunding

3. All exclusives

4. Can't play elsewhere 

5. On launchpad

6. Fig isn't crowdfunding

7. We have 50 games in dev

8. We've 'presold' x amount

9. Snafoo is a pack in

10. 100% refundable deposit

11. J Allard is an avenger on the team

12. Start seeing your revenue share in Nov 2021

13. We can totally release on (insert multiple dates)

14. We will have physical games

15. We will have physical media

16. Insert any flub and say it was a "joke", "innuendo", or to "troll Pat". (Occams Razor suggests incompetence)

17. Not doing mobile ports.

18. Any mention of transparency 

19. Game price

20. Console price

So many many more....

[+lawdawg710]

Is mr_me getting paid by IE or TT???  I haven't honestly seen anyone, at least not in a very long time, defend so staunchly and blindly, someone or something that is literally in a coma, on life support about to have the plug pulled!!  Not gonna lie, I have watched this train wreck from the start and he is the one stand out who is ALWAYS there to bring up some weird justification for the system and how the company has handled and done things.  

 

Anyway, this thing is all but done and at this point it literally will go down in history as Chameleon 2.0

[digdugnate]

Tacobox confirmed.

 

[MrBeefy]

1 minute ago, lawdawg710 said:

Is mr_me getting paid by IE or TT???  I haven't honestly seen anyone, at least not in a very long time, defend so staunchly and blindly, someone or something that is literally in a coma, on life support about to have the plug pulled!!  Not gonna lie, I have watched this train wreck from the start and he is the one stand out who is ALWAYS there to bring up some weird justification for the system and how the company has handled and done things.  

 

Anyway, this thing is all but done and at this point it literally will go down in history as Chameleon 2.0

I do believe there were employees in the Q&A posing as fans. They're known to astroturf and you notice when that thread was gone most of the newbies went with it.

[digdugnate]

Just now, MrBeefy said:

I do believe there were employees in the Q&A posing as fans. They're known to astroturf and you notice when that thread was gone most of the newbies went with it.

ASK YOURSELF WHY THAT IS 

[MrBeefy]

2 minutes ago, digdugnate said:

Tacobox confirmed.

 

Marketing has started confirmed! They have a product and its tacos! ?

 

We now know why Tommy hated the Taco Thread. It was honing in on their product!

[mr_me]

38 minutes ago, MrBeefy said:

Pssst... remember the "launchpad" talk?

I added to my original comment before yours.

"If Fundable advised investors that they are still working on Amico system software.  And prior to that, the Republic/Fig web page advised investors that funds are to be used for Amico development, where's the lie?  If you go to a judge with only "it's on the launchpad", you don't have a case."

 

37 minutes ago, Rev said:

Well one was that crowdfunding wasnt going to be used. 

We were specifically talking about the status of product development to investors.  So this is taking a comment out of context.

 

And I've said before, that I'm not claiming they haven't been misleading or exaggerated things.

 

This specific one is debatable and has been discussed probably several times already on atariage.  As you know there are different types of crowdfunding varying from customers prepaying for the product e.g. kickstarter, to equity or revenue share investing.  That statement was made very early in the project and in the context of customers prepaying for the console like a kickstarter.  The plan is to have the opportunity for people to try it before buying, some already have.  Of course now they are having trouble getting them manufactured.  The overwhelming majority of their funding is equity and revenue share investing.

 

 

30 minutes ago, jerseystyle said:

Or that all refund requests would be honored.
 

Or that Cornhole would be awesome. I was legitimately pumped about Cornhole, too. 

They did refund deposits on request for two years, until they ran out of money.  Cornhole is a matter of opinion.  I didn't have much expectations for motion control games, haven't tried Amico cornhole yet to say.

 

 

9 minutes ago, MrBeefy said:

I do believe there were employees in the Q&A posing as fans. They're known to astroturf and you notice when that thread was gone most of the newbies went with it.

There were employees posting as employees.  Obviously not everyone posting in an Amico thread is a fan,

Edited July 14, 2022 by mr_me

[MrBeefy]

1 minute ago, digdugnate said:

ASK YOURSELF WHY THAT IS 

Shows like Ellen, Conan, magazines like "O" didn't want them so they needed someplace to "fluff them up" and make them seem legitimate.

 

They knew they had a base of hardcore Intelly fans here. Sprinkle that in with some fake astroturfing and BEWM! Look at my awesome thread on AA!

 

I heard you get banned on their FB group if you ask about the status of refunds. ?

[+lawdawg710]

1 minute ago, mr_me said:

I added to my original comment before yours.

"If Fundable advised investors that they are still working on Amico system software.  And prior to that, the Republic/Fig web page advised investors that funds are to be used for Amico development, where's the lie?  If you go to a judge with only "it's on the launchpad", you don't have a case."

 

We were specifically talking about the status of product development to investors.  So this is taking a comment out of context.

 

And I've said before, that I'm not claiming they haven't been misleading or exaggerated things.

 

This specific one is debatable and has been discussed probably several times already on atariage.  As you know there are different types of crowdfunding varying from customers prepaying for the product e.g. kickstarter, to equity or revenue share investing.  That statement was made very early in the project and in the context of customers prepaying for the console like a kickstarter.  The plan is to have the opportunity for people to try it before buying, some already have.  Of course now they are having trouble getting them manufactured.

 

 

They did refund deposits on request for two years, until they ran out of money.  Cornhole is a matter of opinion.  I didn't have much expectations for motion control games, haven't tried Amico cornhole yet to say.

 

 

There were employees posting as employees.  Obviously not everyone posting in an Amico thread is a fan,

WOW lol....I rest my case!!

[MrBeefy]

1 minute ago, mr_me said:

, where's the lie?  

I know you struggle with the launchpad metaphor but feel free to look at the 20 ones above if you so chose.

 

Their CEO would also claim that they weren't doing crowdfunding because they didn't need money to develop the console. Either way they lied so even your arguement about how the funds could be used is bogus. They lied about it being ready, and/or lied about using crowdfunding.

 

Sorry bit there isn't a way to denied they lied beyond deluding yourself to the reality of the situation. ?‍?

[mr_me]

 

1 hour ago, MrBeefy said:

I ...

You also quoted and responded out of context.  Even quoting only part of the comment.  We were specifically talking about the status of product development to investors.

 

Again, I'm not claiming they haven't been misleading or exaggerated things.  However, much of that list is highly debatable.

 

"1. Special 2D tech"

Misleading by them, and I pointed out the mistake at the time.  Is this a problem?

 

"2. No crowdfunding"

discussed above, again

 

"3. All exclusives"

somewhat misleading, but from the beginning it was about exclusive versions of games, and many games are all exclusive

 

"4. Can't play elsewhere"

exageration, there will be some gameplay and games like that but obviously others could be ported with modifications.

 

5. On launchpad

discussed in this thread

 

6. Fig isn't crowdfunding

Not sure if they actually said this. but either way the term crowdfunding can mean different types of funding including equity investing.  Obviously you don't expect them to not pursue investors.

 

7. We have 50 games in dev

They didn't have fifty games in development at one time? Later they said it's been reduced to forty.

 

8. We've 'presold' x amount

How many did they get in purchase orders and preorders both direct and through retailers according to your research?

 

9. Snafoo is a pack in

At one time it was selected to be a pack-in.  Is this a problem?

 

10. 100% refundable deposit

They do owe 100% of the deposit upon refund request, not 85% or 90% like some others do it.  It's 100% and still is.

 

11. J Allard is an avenger on the team

He wasn't?

 

12. Start seeing your revenue share in Nov 2021

Depending on when it was said, they would just be wrong.

 

13. We can totally release on (insert multiple dates)

What date did they say that?  Don't have inside information to say for sure but they had some games ready in 2021 along with hardware being 100% ready, electronic game distribution, firmware push updates functional.

 

14. We will have physical games

misleading, early on it may have been their intention to do this and then found it to be impractical

 

15. We will have physical media

misleading

 

16. Insert any flub and say it was a "joke", "innuendo", or to "troll Pat". (Occams Razor suggests incompetence)

who cares

 

17. Not doing mobile ports.

did they say this?  they always said not doing direct ports, which means they are doing ports

 

18. Any mention of transparency

debatable, they were fairly transparent early on and now they aren't

 

19. Game price

People complained that the announced pricing would limit the complexity of games.  Was making that change not a good idea?  All the launch window games are still supposed to be $10 or less.

 

20. Console price

Console didn't have a price until 2020.  No they didn't meet their target but there were also changes to the product as well.

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by mr_me

[+Lathe26]

38 minutes ago, digdugnate said:

Tacobox confirmed.

 

Is Tacobox a Taco Bell themed game console?  If so, can I pay for it with my horde investment of $TWINKcoin?

 

 

[digdugnate]

52 minutes ago, mr_me said:

 

You also quoted and responded out of context.  Even quoting only part of the comment.  We were specifically talking about the status of product development to investors.

 

Again, I'm not claiming they haven't been misleading or exaggerated things.  However, much of that list is highly debatable.

 

"1. Special 2D tech"

Misleading by them, and I pointed out the mistake at the time.  Is this a problem?

 

"2. No crowdfunding"

discussed above, again

 

"3. All exclusives"

somewhat misleading, but from the beginning it was about exclusive versions of games

 

"4. Can't play elsewhere"

exageration, there will be some gameplay and games like that but obviously others could be ported with modifications.

 

5. On launchpad

discussed in this thread

 

6. Fig isn't crowdfunding

Not sure if they actually said this. but either way the term crowdfunding can mean different types of funding including equity investing.  Obviously you don't expect them to not pursue investors.

 

7. We have 50 games in dev

They didn't have fifty games in development at one time? Later they said it's been reduced to forty.

 

8. We've 'presold' x amount

How many did they get in purchase orders and preorders both direct and through retailers according to your research?

 

9. Snafoo is a pack in

At one time it was selected to be a pack-in.  Is this a problem?

 

10. 100% refundable deposit

They do owe 100% of the deposit upon refund request, not 85% or 90% like some others do it.  It's 100% and still is.

 

11. J Allard is an avenger on the team

He wasn't?

 

12. Start seeing your revenue share in Nov 2021

Depending on when it was said, they would just be wrong.

 

13. We can totally release on (insert multiple dates)

What date did they say that?  Don't have inside information to say for sure but they had some games ready in 2021 along with hardware being 100% ready, electronic game distribution, firmware push updates functional.

 

14. We will have physical games

misleading

 

15. We will have physical media

misleading

 

16. Insert any flub and say it was a "joke", "innuendo", or to "troll Pat". (Occams Razor suggests incompetence)

who cares

 

17. Not doing mobile ports.

did they say this?  they always said not doing direct ports, which means they are doing ports

 

18. Any mention of transparency

debatable, they were fairly transparent early on and now they aren't

 

19. Game price

People complained that the announced pricing would limit the complexity of games.  Was making that change not a good idea?  All the launch window games are still supposed to be $10 or less.

 

20. Console price

Console didn't have a price until 2020.  No they didn't meet their target but there were also changes to the product as well.

 

looks like a nerve was touched.

[roots.genoa]

1 hour ago, lawdawg710 said:

defend so staunchly and blindly, someone or something that is literally in a coma, on life support about to have the plug pulled

To be fair, that's precisely when someone needs defending, right? ? (I get what you meant, but the metaphor is weird)

 

1 hour ago, mr_me said:

11. J Allard is an avenger on the team

He wasn't?

Not anymore when they sometimes said it, no. Allard has been a consultant for a few weeks at most. Tommy even insisted (after the fact of course) that he had never been an employee, which was quite different from introducing him as chief design manager or whatever bullshit job they came up with.

Edited July 14, 2022 by roots.genoa

[+5-11under]

1 hour ago, MrBeefy said:

Either way Tommy and co lied and embellished their progress. Fundable shows how big the lie was in 2020.

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1909726/000166516022000236/offeringmemoformc.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiQ-dqFxvj4AhX6CTQIHaMXBRcQFnoECAYQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1CobXGJ_EhlHeBIHrsPYMY

 

This is the SEC docs showing how bad off they've been.

Well, I had a fairly quick look at that document. Thanks for that... a recommended read. If I'm bored later, I'll re-read the whole thing, more slowly.

My first impressions are that it's very bad, and doesn't bode well for the future of the Amico:

1. A lot of money is owed.
2. The directors/board or whoever received annual loan interest rates of 10% long term, and up to more than 30% short term.
3. Fig gets a very large chunk of future earnings.
4. Only 13% of money raised will go toward purchasing components/parts.
5. If I was rich and had lots of money to blow/spend on video game related businesses, I'd definitely still look elsewhere (or wait until I could buy the company for pennies on the dollar).

[mr_me]

9 minutes ago, roots.genoa said:

Not anymore when they sometimes said it, no. Allard has been a consultant for a few weeks at most. Tommy even insisted (after the fact of course) that he had never been an employee, which was quite different from introducing him as chief design manager or whatever bullshit job they came up with.

From the beginning they listed consultants and people contracted as part of the team.  The Republic page even specifically said it's not limited to employees.  My understanding is that Allard was on a three month contract.  He came late in the development cycle and contributed with his feedback.  He probably contributed more than some others.  Anyone who was there and contributed was part of the team.

[Rev]

1 hour ago, mr_me said:

 

You also quoted and responded out of context.  Even quoting only part of the comment.  We were specifically talking about the status of product development to investors.

 

Again, I'm not claiming they haven't been misleading or exaggerated things.  However, much of that list is highly debatable.

 

"1. Special 2D tech"

Misleading by them, and I pointed out the mistake at the time.  Is this a problem?

 

"2. No crowdfunding"

discussed above, again

 

"3. All exclusives"

somewhat misleading, but from the beginning it was about exclusive versions of games, and many games are all exclusive

 

"4. Can't play elsewhere"

exageration, there will be some gameplay and games like that but obviously others could be ported with modifications.

 

5. On launchpad

discussed in this thread

 

6. Fig isn't crowdfunding

Not sure if they actually said this. but either way the term crowdfunding can mean different types of funding including equity investing.  Obviously you don't expect them to not pursue investors.

 

7. We have 50 games in dev

They didn't have fifty games in development at one time? Later they said it's been reduced to forty.

 

8. We've 'presold' x amount

How many did they get in purchase orders and preorders both direct and through retailers according to your research?

 

9. Snafoo is a pack in

At one time it was selected to be a pack-in.  Is this a problem?

 

10. 100% refundable deposit

They do owe 100% of the deposit upon refund request, not 85% or 90% like some others do it.  It's 100% and still is.

 

11. J Allard is an avenger on the team

He wasn't?

 

12. Start seeing your revenue share in Nov 2021

Depending on when it was said, they would just be wrong.

 

13. We can totally release on (insert multiple dates)

What date did they say that?  Don't have inside information to say for sure but they had some games ready in 2021 along with hardware being 100% ready, electronic game distribution, firmware push updates functional.

 

14. We will have physical games

misleading, early on it may have been their intention to do this and then found it to be impractical

 

15. We will have physical media

misleading

 

16. Insert any flub and say it was a "joke", "innuendo", or to "troll Pat". (Occams Razor suggests incompetence)

who cares

 

17. Not doing mobile ports.

did they say this?  they always said not doing direct ports, which means they are doing ports

 

18. Any mention of transparency

debatable, they were fairly transparent early on and now they aren't

 

19. Game price

People complained that the announced pricing would limit the complexity of games.  Was making that change not a good idea?  All the launch window games are still supposed to be $10 or less.

 

20. Console price

Console didn't have a price until 2020.  No they didn't meet their target but there were also changes to the product as well.

 

A prime example….Too many people have adopted this philosophy in real life. 

 

[Rev]

20 minutes ago, mr_me said:

From the beginning they listed consultants and people contracted as part of the team.  The Republic page even specifically said it's not limited to employees.  My understanding is that Allard was on a three month contract.  He came late in the development cycle and contributed with his feedback.  He probably contributed more than some others.  Anyone who was there and contributed was part of the team.

Allard contributed his high profile name to help snag investors. Then bolted.

[SteveTheColecoDude]

5 minutes ago, Rev said:

A prime example….Too many people have adopted this philosophy in real life. 

 

 

Everybody: "What a funny joke from a comedy show"

Tommy: "Thank you for the advice George!"

[MrBeefy]

55 minutes ago, digdugnate said:

looks like a nerve was touched.

Funny someone PMd me saying the same thing about Tommy after his reaction to my post pointing out he was making AA look bad.

 

As a side note I do not fully agree with CUPodcasts opinion on that specific topic but realize some do feel that way.

 

Unfortunately some people will continue to excuse lies or don't know the definition of lie. Amico had its work cut out for it in the Edutainment area. Amico Fun with Numbers- How to Read Data, Amico Spelling, Amico Words for Kids - Simple Word Understanding.

 

For those who need help. ?

Definition of lie (Entry 3 of 4)

intransitive verb

1: to make an untrue statement with intent to deceiveShe was lying when she said she didn't break the vase.He lied about his past experience.

2: to create a false or misleading impressionStatistics sometimes lie.The mirror never lies.

transitive verb

: to bring about by telling liesHe lied his way out of trouble.

lie

 noun (2)

\ ˈlī  \

Definition of lie (Entry 4 of 4)

1a: an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker or writer to be untrue with intent to deceiveHe told a lie to avoid punishment.

b: an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker or writerthe lies we tell ourselves to feel betterhistorical records containing numerous lies

2: something that misleads or deceivesHis show of remorse was a lie.

[Hwlngmad]

12 hours ago, Lathe26 said:

 

It appears that the above post was missed by some folks, so I'll restate and extend for the public record:

1. Pat the NES Punk did not make the quote I initially claimed he did.
2. What other folks and I were remembering was a SmashJT video that incorporated a real but different quote from Pat.  SmashJT then stuffed extra words through video cuts and angry insinuation.  I bought into the video's false claims about Pat.
   (video is https://youtu.be/46Y-QvGrHV0?t=540, pertinent portion at timestamp 9:00)
3. For my actions above, I apologize to Pat.

Minor: I am still curious about the source of Pat's real quote since it has not been found in the Amico playlist.  This is only see the larger context of Pat was actually saying for my own self-education.  Seeing (or not seeing) the original quote's source doesn't change any of the above.

Hey, you weren't the only one who misremembered.  I could have sworn that Pat said that quote as well, but that very much looks incorrect.  Man, getting older stinks, but so how goes one's memory.  Besides, at this point I am willing to give Pat and Ian the more benefit of the doubt as they have been on point for the most part during this whole saga.

[mr_me]

1 hour ago, 5-11under said:

Well, I had a fairly quick look at that document. Thanks for that... a recommended read. If I'm bored later, I'll re-read the whole thing, more slowly.

My first impressions are that it's very bad, and doesn't bode well for the future of the Amico:

1. A lot of money is owed.
2. The directors/board or whoever received annual loan interest rates of 10% long term, and up to more than 30% short term.
3. Fig gets a very large chunk of future earnings.
4. Only 13% of money raised will go toward purchasing components/parts.
5. If I was rich and had lots of money to blow/spend on video game related businesses, I'd definitely still look elsewhere (or wait until I could buy the company for pennies on the dollar).

Much of the money owed is to the founding partners and directors, it can be converted to equity and is within their control.  Some of the remaining debt is not due until sometime in the future, some is due this year so they'll have to deal with that if they want to continue.

 

Republic/Fig did fund over two thirds of this thing so they should get a fair share of revenue.  

 

The risk document explains that manufacturing, ordering components, etc, is to be financed through short term loans and credits.  They will need a decent marketing budget, so that has to part of the plan.

 

Obviously new investors would have to share in the belief of the long term success of the game platform.

 

42 minutes ago, Rev said:

Allard contributed his high profile name to help snag investors. Then bolted.

I've never heard of him before this.  I doubt typical investors have either.  He managed the game system for a company with near unlimited funds and is way behind their competitor.

Edited July 14, 2022 by mr_me

[MrBeefy]

49 minutes ago, 5-11under said:

Well, I had a fairly quick look at that document. Thanks for that... a recommended read. If I'm bored later, I'll re-read the whole thing, more slowly.

My first impressions are that it's very bad, and doesn't bode well for the future of the Amico:

1. A lot of money is owed.
2. The directors/board or whoever received annual loan interest rates of 10% long term, and up to more than 30% short term.
3. Fig gets a very large chunk of future earnings.
4. Only 13% of money raised will go toward purchasing components/parts.
5. If I was rich and had lots of money to blow/spend on video game related businesses, I'd definitely still look elsewhere (or wait until I could buy the company for pennies on the dollar).

It is quite terrible looking and has been that way for a long time. Anyone who invests in them are effectively just paying back debts owed. This is why if they can't file for bankruptcy (to wipe away said debt) they won't get anyone to invest in my opinion.

 

This is why I think they will make a small batch (not enough to cover FE even) just to fill contractual obligations. They will make them, pray for some miracle investor, when they don't show close up shop call it a day and license stuff out to like Evercade.

 

Then try to act like none of this ever happened.

27 minutes ago, Rev said:

A prime example….Too many people have adopted this philosophy in real life. 

 

Yeah but what is funny is it really is still a lie. Doesn't matter how much one wants to delude themselves, it is still a lie.

 

23 minutes ago, Rev said:

Allard contributed his high profile name to help snag investors. Then bolted.

He was used in that sleazy Neil Patel video. SEC made them change it after the fact to clarify what he did.

6 minutes ago, Hwlngmad said:

Hey, you weren't the only one who misremembered.  I could have sworn that Pat said that quote as well, but that very much looks incorrect.  Man, getting older stinks, but so how goes one's memory.  Besides, at this point I am willing to give Pat and Ian the more benefit of the doubt as they have been on point for the most part during this whole saga.

To be fair to you all you did have a very loud and prone to lie CEO running wild and having others spread such lies and perpetuate that. As Rev said its like the telephone game of sorts.

 

WOULDN'T IT HAVE BEEN SOMETHING if the CEO spent as much time on the product he was taking money for, instead of posting on forums and doing YouTube searches of himself and Amico? People might have Amicos/Amici to play on, but obviously p-owning the made up haters was priority.

[+5-11under]

15 minutes ago, mr_me said:

Much of the money owed is to the founding partners and directors, it can be converted to equity and is within their control.  Some of the remaining debt is not due until sometime in the future, some is due this year so they'll have to deal with that if they want to continue.

 

Republic/Fig did fund over two thirds of this thing so they should get a fair share of revenue. 

They've basically locked themselves out of future investments, unless someone is either stupid enough, or is able to renegotiate those ludicrous 10 to 30+% loans and Fig payment terms that the founders/directors have - basically ensuring most of them get paid well, almost regardless of how poorly the company performs.

 

15 minutes ago, mr_me said:

Obviously new investors would have to share in the belief of the long term success of the game platform.

The hole is too deep for this company as it stands now. Can't make money for a long time, with the current deals.

Either that, or lots of drugs.

[mr_me]

17 minutes ago, MrBeefy said:

He was used in that sleazy Neil Patel video. SEC made them change it after the fact to clarify what he did.

SEC didn't make them do anything.  Someone at SEC, in a telephone call with Republic/Fig, inquired about Allard.  Likely in response to complaints by concerned citizens.  It's their job to respond and see if there's something to investigate.  Doesn't mean they found anything worth investigating.  Republic/Fig did provide an Allard clarification note in their next SEC filing.  It says Allard was a fulltime advisor for several months and then remained available as an advisor after the fulltime period ended.

 

1 minute ago, 5-11under said:

They've basically locked themselves out of future investments, unless someone is either stupid enough, or is able to renegotiate those ludicrous 10 to 30+% loans and Fig payment terms that the founders/directors have - basically ensuring most of them get paid well, almost regardless of how poorly the company performs.

 

The hole is too deep for this company as it stands now. Can't make money for a long time, with the current deals.

Either that, or lots of drugs.

Obviously the directors and founding partners are in a good position to renegotiate their own loans if it will benefit the company.  I've read something that accounting wise it's beneficial to show debt.  And much of that debt can be converted to equity in the future.

 

And I'll mention about the revenue share deal, that an equity investor is primarily interested in building equity investment and value.  The revenue share deal provided funding without diluting the equity value of the company.  Of course it's not worth anything if Amicos don't sell.