7800 Piggyback Expansion Module comes to life!

[Jet-X]

Everyone's different, but I just don't understand the interest in arcade ports. The 2 kinds of arcade games I like are (1) the flawed, limited, imperfect one I grew up playing so I'm nostalgic about

 

That's largely the reason - you nearly hit it. It's about being taken back 20+ years to the time the 7800 was released, wishing and hoping specific games would get released. Not to mention seeing the hardware being pushed as hard as possible. Yes I can play a perfect version now on MAME, but that's like me saying "I don't need a cartridge version of (insert game), I'll just play the emulated version". Just like the majority of all the 7800 games, should I stop playing Food Fight, Robotron, or any other arcade port because I can play a perfectly emulated version on MAME? No. Playing these games is not only enjoyable (and different) but takes me back to my younger years. It reminds me of a specific time in my life, and all the excitement of getting a new game and playing it.

 

I'm probably alone there, but that's my opinion on the want of arcade ports: what would it have been like, and what would my excitement have been back then.

 

The only problem I see these days is that the programmers doing 7800 games now are better than the guys in the 80s.

[Austin]

I don't find anything wrong with arcade ports as long as they haven't been ported to dozens of platforms already. Super Pac-Man for the 7800 is a great example of this. It's been on other compilations, but even those are obscure and tough to find. Would I want to shell out the same kind of money (again) for a rehash of a popular Atari arcade game though? Probably not.

 

With that, keep the ports coming with this new module, as long as it's something that is harder to get elsewhere.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Austin

[DracIsBack]

The only problem I see these days is that the programmers doing 7800 games now are better than the guys in the 80s.

 

I really don't see that as a problem ...

[panamajoe]

so, will this be working with PAL machines?

[GroovyBee]

so, will this be working with PAL machines?

 

That's up to the game's programmer.

[atariksi]

Everyone's different, but I just don't understand the interest in arcade ports. The 2 kinds of arcade games I like are (1) the flawed, limited, imperfect one I grew up playing so I'm nostalgic about

 

That's largely the reason - you nearly hit it. It's about being taken back 20+ years to the time the 7800 was released, wishing and hoping specific games would get released. Not to mention seeing the hardware being pushed as hard as possible. Yes I can play a perfect version now on MAME, but that's like me saying "I don't need a cartridge version of (insert game), I'll just play the emulated version". Just like the majority of all the 7800 games, should I stop playing Food Fight, Robotron, or any other arcade port because I can play a perfectly emulated version on MAME? No. Playing these games is not only enjoyable (and different) but takes me back to my younger years. It reminds me of a specific time in my life, and all the excitement of getting a new game and playing it.

 

I'm probably alone there, but that's my opinion on the want of arcade ports: what would it have been like, and what would my excitement have been back then.

 

The only problem I see these days is that the programmers doing 7800 games now are better than the guys in the 80s.

 

I highly doubt the MAME is perfect. There's all sorts of differences in the hardware and controllers and there's bound to be some glitches here and there that show up. And I don't think programmers are better now-- it's just that they have more time and no pressure for money/time/etc. You could have had better programmers back in the 1980s who had a time limit or weren't being paid enough or didn't have other incentives to continue their work or make a better product. Maybe more programmers nowadays would do it now out of their "love" for the machine so better in that sense but can't really say in the technological sense.

[DracIsBack]

And I don't think programmers are better now-- it's just that they have more time and no pressure for money/time/etc.

 

Yeah - done for love, not money/deadline. Though I would argue that many of the 7800 homebrewers are better coders than some of the folks hired back then to make games.

 

Also, there are some advances in tools/techniques that have happened since then and some constraints removed like ability to write to bigger cart sizes factored in.

[Underball]

Everyone's different, but I just don't understand the interest in arcade ports. The 2 kinds of arcade games I like are (1) the flawed, limited, imperfect one I grew up playing so I'm nostalgic about

 

That's largely the reason - you nearly hit it. It's about being taken back 20+ years to the time the 7800 was released, wishing and hoping specific games would get released. Not to mention seeing the hardware being pushed as hard as possible. Yes I can play a perfect version now on MAME, but that's like me saying "I don't need a cartridge version of (insert game), I'll just play the emulated version". Just like the majority of all the 7800 games, should I stop playing Food Fight, Robotron, or any other arcade port because I can play a perfectly emulated version on MAME? No. Playing these games is not only enjoyable (and different) but takes me back to my younger years. It reminds me of a specific time in my life, and all the excitement of getting a new game and playing it.

 

I'm probably alone there, but that's my opinion on the want of arcade ports: what would it have been like, and what would my excitement have been back then.

 

The only problem I see these days is that the programmers doing 7800 games now are better than the guys in the 80s.

 

This is exactly the same reason I want more/better arcade ports.

 

I grew up on arcade style games. But arcades weren't something I go to do often, so the various Atari ports I got for Christmas or Birthdays had to suffice. Those are my fondest gaming memories.

 

I honestly think it's a generational thing, and that those who are slightly younger than first/second generation Atari fans, i.e. Nintendo and Sega age gamers, prefer all these non-arcade games, long convoluted Japanime RPG's with bad grammar and weird character names, and kidsy, Yoshi cartoony games.

[Underball]

And I don't think programmers are better now-- it's just that they have more time and no pressure for money/time/etc.

 

Yeah - done for love, not money/deadline. Though I would argue that many of the 7800 homebrewers are better coders than some of the folks hired back then to make games.

 

Also, there are some advances in tools/techniques that have happened since then and some constraints removed like ability to write to bigger cart sizes factored in.

I think they're probably on par with the originals, but the original coders didn't have Windows 7 and i7 core processors, and 8 gigs of ram to code games on.

[desiv]

... but the original coders didn't have Windows 7 and i7 core processors, and 8 gigs of ram to code games on.

 

Wait... was that a pro or a con??

 

 

desiv

[Underball]

... but the original coders didn't have Windows 7 and i7 core processors, and 8 gigs of ram to code games on.

 

Wait... was that a pro or a con??

 

 

desiv

 

It was a huge challenge, that's for sure.

[DracIsBack]

I think they're probably on par with the originals, but the original coders didn't have Windows 7 and i7 core processors, and 8 gigs of ram to code games on.

 

 

Not all coders are created equal - then or now. Ibid Inc will never strike me as an amazing development shop, regardless of what they had available to them!

[Jet-X]

And I don't think programmers are better now-- it's just that they have more time and no pressure for money/time/etc.

 

Not quite - the differences now vs. then (and goes for just about every console) is that enough time has passed for people to delve deeper and deeper into the hardware, understand all the nuances, and how to push it farther than was originally envisioned. You can't do that from day 1 (or even year 3) on any platform. It takes time, experimentation, etc. Any game console, compare many launch titles with titles that were 3, 4 years into the development cycle. Quite a bit of difference. Give someone 20+ years to continue and explore the hardware (and in the case of the expansion module, take it even further), and the titles theoretically can be a significant leap over early developed titles.

 

Finally, regarding MAME being arcade perfect, for all intents and purposes (controller issues aside), the early gen games are indistinguishable from a stand alone arcade machine. At that point, say Donkey Kong for instance, only a cabinet and the specific controller separates it from MAME. Put a PC with MAME inside a DK cabinet, and doubtful anyone would know the difference. My point in all of this is that there are more arcade accurate titles with MAME than playing the 7800 (or other platforms) versions. But it doesn't stop me from playing, it's just a different experience.

[jaybird3rd]

This is exactly the same reason I want more/better arcade ports.

 

I grew up on arcade style games. But arcades weren't something I go to do often, so the various Atari ports I got for Christmas or Birthdays had to suffice. Those are my fondest gaming memories.

 

I honestly think it's a generational thing, and that those who are slightly younger than first/second generation Atari fans, i.e. Nintendo and Sega age gamers, prefer all these non-arcade games, long convoluted Japanime RPG's with bad grammar and weird character names, and kidsy, Yoshi cartoony games.

I think it has a lot more to do with why you have chosen to play (or create) video games on older platforms like the 7800 in the first place. Is it because you enjoy the games as such, or is it because you're looking to "relive your childhood" by playing the same games you played as a kid? Judging from the high percentage of ports in the output of homebrew developers, I suspect that a majority of the people here would fall into the second category, but I would place myself firmly in the first.

 

When I play games on an old computer or console, or when I develop game ideas for these platforms, my primary motivation has nothing to do with nostalgic sentimentality, or righting the wrongs of history, or playing "what-if" games with the past and imagining how things might have been different if there had been no Nintendo or no Tramiels. It has to do with enjoying and exploring as many different game ideas and game forms as possible. I choose the older platforms mainly because they offer me the greatest variety, and also because the technical limitations place a satisfying emphasis on the gameplay instead of the audiovisuals. (In contrast, I find games on more modern platforms to be formulaic, hit-driven, overly complex, too expensive, burdened with sequelitis, and all the other common criticisms that I won't rehash here.) Nostalgia is certainly an element of my enjoyment when I revisit an old game that I played as a kid, but I now enjoy playing Intellivision games just as much, and I never saw or owned an Intellivision until I was in my early thirties.

 

These are the reasons why I would much prefer to see more original games. There is plenty of creative potential left in the 7800 and other classic consoles and computers, but I'm afraid it will never be explored as long as developers continue to rechew and regurgitate the same old ideas. But then again, everyone has to choose their projects for their own reasons, and I would rather see ports than no homebrew games at all.

[GroovyBee]

Not quite - the differences now vs. then (and goes for just about every console) is that enough time has passed for people to delve deeper and deeper into the hardware, understand all the nuances, and how to push it farther than was originally envisioned. You can't do that from day 1 (or even year 3) on any platform.

 

I haven't spent 20+ years looking at what to do with the 7800. The games I've worked on are a real time evolution of what I've learnt since I released my first game Wasp! last year.

[Underball]

I also would add that I prefer the simpler play mechanics/concepts of Atari 2600/7800 games mostly to more complicated latter generation games. I don't have a lot of time to dedicate to actually playing the games these days, so games that take 25-30 minutes to get to the point with plotting, storyline, poorly acted FMV/cut scenes just bore me to tears.

 

If I've only got an hour of free time to play a game, I don't want to waste half of it listening to Mark Hammill or John Rhys Davies ramble on about the Falluvian hordes invading Kronkor 12 or some other silly shit.

 

I just wanna shoot/eat/blow shit up and get through a few levels of a game.

[Jet-X]

I haven't spent 20+ years looking at what to do with the 7800. The games I've worked on are a real time evolution of what I've learnt since I released my first game Wasp! last year.

 

But you have a lot more resources to turn to that developers 20 years ago didn't. Are you telling me you just got a dev kit and started coding without looking at other code examples on the 7800, talking to other developers, etc?

[GroovyBee]

But you have a lot more resources to turn to that developers 20 years ago didn't. Are you telling me you just got a dev kit and started coding without looking at other code examples on the 7800, talking to other developers, etc?

 

Correct! I looked at the 7800 sprite examples and they didn't do what I wanted to do. One of the first things I did was write start-up code to get the CC65 "C" compiler system going. Then a simple PC tool to create 160A/B graphics and then a 6502 assembly language games specific library to make it easier to handle MARIA and my game Wasp! was born to demo it.

[Underball]

But you have a lot more resources to turn to that developers 20 years ago didn't. Are you telling me you just got a dev kit and started coding without looking at other code examples on the 7800, talking to other developers, etc?

 

Correct! I looked at the 7800 sprite examples and they didn't do what I wanted to do. One of the first things I did was write start-up code to get the CC65 "C" compiler system going. Then a simple PC tool to create 160A/B graphics and then a 6502 assembly language games specific library to make it easier to handle MARIA and my game Wasp! was born to demo it.

I thought most of Wasp! was based on GCC's Robotron code.

[GroovyBee]

I thought most of Wasp! was based on GCC's Robotron code.

 

ROTFLMAO! You thought wrong, very wrong!

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/141817-wasp-7800-homebrew-with-a-twist

 

The Robotron source code that Curt made available isn't even for the revision of MARIA silicon in the 7800s that shipped.

[ehenciak]

Products like this, no matter how technically impressive, entirely miss the point of coding on classic consoles. Part and parcel of coding on antique hardware is that it's technologically limited, so you suck it up and deal with it. The challenge is the entire point. If you don't want to deal with it, then why are you bothering? Go write Flash games instead.

 

And from a gamer's perspective-- Once you slap on this module, it's no longer an Atari 7800. It's a... I dunno... Curtari Vendelsystem. I have fond nostalgic memories of the Atari 7800, which is why homebrews for it still interest me. The Vendelsystem, on the other hand, I couldn't possibly care less about. If I want a version of Donkey Kong with better sound, I'll just fire up MAME. Ultimately, it all makes about as much sense as going to a Civil War reenactment and handing out AK-47s.

 

This isn't even addressing the installed base problem. The 7800 fan base is already pretty damn small. Fracturing it even further seems foolish at best. Even when major console manufacturers have attempted to introduce expansion modules, it's never been particularly successful.

 

But hey, maybe I'm wrong. If anyone has a more substantive rebuttal than "screew U zylonlame yuo suck!!11!", I'd certainly be happy to listen.

 

 

Your points are all valid ... the 7800 deserves a bit of an exception though :-) ...

 

1> The original 7800 was supposed to ship with a Pokey instead of just using TIA for audio. That alone there was a travesty. If they could have managed to deliver POKEY, the system may have done a bit better. The audio on the 7800 was horrible even by mid 80s standards.

2> They keyboard and high score savers were prototype peripherals that never hit the market.

3> There is an expansion connector ... may as well do something with it :-).

 

Again, I really see your points ... it just looks like this add-on (aside from the extra memory) may have very well been in the cards back in the day for the 7800. I kind of dig the new hardware personally ... especially if the case looks like it should be part of the system :-). Like others have eluded, I'll buy one for the aesthetics/basic features just to round things out with the 7800 :-).

 

Ed

[DracIsBack]

1> The original 7800 was supposed to ship with a Pokey instead of just using TIA for audio.

 

I thought it was always intended to have it in cartridges, due to the size of the case/motherboard, but that a low-cost GUMBY chip was supposed to be made available, so more and more cartridges could use.

 

 

If they could have managed to deliver POKEY, the system may have done a bit better.

 

Perhaps. I think there were a lot of non-technical reasons that got in the way first though ... Nintendo locking up the good games, Nintendo's anti-competitive behaviour in locking down the retail stores, Jack's lack of advertising, Jack's unwillingness to invest game dev/manufacturering, the XE Game System being a distraction, odd consumer positioning of systems and games etc. The fact that it sold as many units as it did with all of these factors in play speaks to how big Atari had been pre-crash and how big the 2600 was.

 

 

The audio on the 7800 was horrible even by mid 80s standards.

 

Oh yes! And even worse ... a lot of games were horrible by TIA standards. There were 2600 games with substantially better sound.

Edited July 22, 2010 by DracIsBack

[Shaggy the Atarian]

I know a lot of people want to see the 7800 include ports of pretty much every arcade game from the 80's but to me that's not terribly exciting anymore. I'm an arcade guy that works in an arcade everyday so maybe that has something to do with a diminished desire to see ports but to me it would be far more interesting to see the new ideas appear on the system.

[classics]

Any information on what the new bank switching modes will look like?

 

Steve

[Curt Vendel]

Update ---

 

Plastics sample is being worked on tomorrow at the Stereolithography shop and they will have it ready by Monday (but perhaps Saturday, I just need to drive and go get it which I have no problem doing)

 

So time is tight, but trying to pull this all together - just saw a sneak preview of one of the new enhancement games and after I picked my jaw up - WOW I think everyone is gonna be VERY VERY happy, its a must need game for the 7800!

 

 

 

 

Curt