Evercade?!

[+madman]

6 hours ago, mr_me said:

With no graphics support for sprites, no native audio chip or game controller ports, the ZX Spectrum wasn't meant for games.

The color palette wasn't meant for human eyes either.

[+jgkspsx]

13 hours ago, mr_me said:

With no graphics support for sprites, no native audio chip or game controller ports, the ZX Spectrum wasn't meant for games.

The Atari 2600 was meant to play Pong and Combat. eppur si muove…

 

[roots.genoa]

10 hours ago, madman said:

The color palette wasn't meant for human eyes either.

Once again, it's not just ZX Spectrum, that's the EGA palette as well.

[+madman]

2 hours ago, roots.genoa said:

Once again, it's not just ZX Spectrum, that's the EGA palette as well.

That explains why I'm so often confused between EGA PC games and Spectrum games. It's the palette.

[roots.genoa]

1 hour ago, madman said:

That explains why I'm so often confused between EGA PC games and Spectrum games. It's the palette.

Well, both display 16 colors, but the ZX Spectrum can't display more than two in each 8x8 tile as I explained earlier. Also the ZX Spectrum uses the default EGA palette (see below, it's also the palette for Windows 3.11's icons as I said earlier), while your top screenshot uses 16 colors from a 64-color palette. What I meant is the palette is not the problem, it depends how you use it. That Out Run port might not be the best looking Spectrum game I admit, but some other games have a lot of charm imho. But I like vivid, primitive colors (like Mondrian for instance) anyway, and I'm aware I'm in the minority.

[+jgkspsx]

You are not alone @roots.genoa
 

[Bill Loguidice]

I will again be blunt with apologies to my UK friends, but the Spectrum was successful primarily because of its low cost of entry. Sure, it occasionally wins a head-to-head against even the Commodore 64, but that's only occasionally and usually when the C-64 port is particularly lazy. In the US, where we've always been far less price conscious, the Spectrum never would have taken off as-is, even if the TS 2068 had been released earlier and executed in a more compatible (and competent) way. There's no ignoring the original keyboard either, nor the lack of built-in ports.

 

Certainly, the 128K models did offer some additional wiggle room for game and audio improvements, and there inarguably are some game types where the Spectrum does particularly well, even against platforms that are generally better suited to gaming. But yeah, I think it's safe to say without the nostalgia factor, it's a difficult platform to appreciate without playing a particularly well-curated collection, and you need to be accepting of the quirks not typically present on something like a C-64.

 

With that said, as good as the C-64 is (and I'd argue it's more amazing than ever with the insane influx of quality homebrews), I know a lot of people have trouble getting into that now as well, so even with a far more capable platform, the core issues are the same. I think for many people, the oldest they're comfortable going is the NES/Famicom, which also has the advantage of being standardized on the same type of controls featured on the Evercade platform. Even then, I suspect there are some games that are VERY difficult to get into for some people for the same types of reasons (I know they are even for me). Probably the broadest appeal is the Genesis/MD and SNES/SFC stuff, but again, I'd rather have as much choice as possible. There are ALWAYS going to be quality games to play, regardless of the platform (almost; certainly I wouldn't want to force anyone, for example, to play my RCA Studio II who wasn't a very particular type of enthusiast).

I just want to wrap up the Spectrum thing by saying that as a hobbyist computer/platform I do find it interesting and have several different models myself, including a ZX Spectrum Next and Omni. This is strictly about distilling a particular computer down to a "game console" for use on something like the Evercade platform. As a computer, and all that means, it's about far more than just games and plenty of computer platforms that are weaker audio-visually than the Spectrum are absolutely enjoyable in that context and taken as a whole, gaming and all. In other words, as "not a console," a computer is obviously about more than just games, just not in this context. 

[+jgkspsx]

2 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

This is strictly about distilling a particular computer down to a "game console" for use on something like the Evercade platform.

Ultimately it’s all about the games. I want Channel F and Odyssey2 games as well as Spectrum. If some people would rather not play an awesome exclusive game because they don’t think it’s colorful enough:

or would rather play a worse version of a game that looks better, like

that’s between them and their god. But it wouldn’t be me.

 

[roots.genoa]

And I completely agree, Bill, the ZX Spectrum would have never taken off in the US where people have shitty tastes. 😉

 

More seriously, to be perfectly clear, it didn't take off here in France either, where the Amstrad CPC was the most popular computer, distantly followed by the Atari ST iirc. I never had a Spectrum as a kid, and didn't know any owner; I just fell in love around 15 years ago with its "primary" aesthetics - I tend to like that kind of stuff: Mondrian, Peter Saville, Jean-Luc Godard, etc.

 

Anyway, my point regarding Madman's comment was just that the Spectrum palette is not some kind of British invention, since you can find it in a lot of computers from around the world. Now I can obviously understand people find it ugly but, personally, I prefer Spectrum's vivid palette to the richer but faded C64 one.

[Bill Loguidice]

2 minutes ago, jgkspsx said:

Ultimately it’s all about the games. I want Channel F and Odyssey2 games as well as Spectrum.

 

I of course agree, but within specific limits. Unless they plan on supporting specialty controls, like trackballs, spinners, paddles, light guns, analog sticks, keyboards, etc., I'd rather NOT have it. For instance, some Channel F/VES and Astrocade games absolutely need the paddle, and we've certainly had some frustrations with a few of the compiled Atari arcade games and a collection or two other because the default gamepad controls (and 8bitdo arcade joystick) are not suited to the game's original control scheme.

[+jgkspsx]

1 minute ago, Bill Loguidice said:

For instance, some Channel F/VES and Astrocade games absolutely need the paddle

The Channel F controller is all digital. Just mapping the twist to the bumpers would work fine.

[Bill Loguidice]

2 minutes ago, roots.genoa said:

Anyway, my point regarding Madman's comment was just that the Spectrum palette is not some kind of British invention, since you can find it in a lot of computers from around the world. Now I can obviously understand people find it ugly but, personally, I prefer Spectrum's vivid palette to the richer but faded C64 one.

Palette is absolutely a point of contention in the various communities and it's often the C-64 that's on the side of the "versus." It's often Atari 8-bit vs C-64, Amstrad vs C-64, ZX Spectrum vs C-64, etc., with fans of the non-C-64 platform often touting how their palettes are superior, with the C-64 often being downplayed as too brown and too "dim." For me, taken as a whole, I generally prefer the C-64 palette, as it tends to have more natural colors versus the often garish palette of something like an Amstrad, as well as is able to have a more pleasing combination in actual games versus the limitations of what colors are actually able to be displayed onscreen by the other platforms (aka, the proof is in the game pudding). Again, in general. Each platform has specific instances where brilliant use is made of their palettes that beat the general usage on other platforms, but it's definitely not the norm and requires very specific/careful programming/game types. 

[Bill Loguidice]

3 minutes ago, jgkspsx said:

The Channel F controller is all digital. Just mapping the twist to the bumpers would work fine.

If you're OK with that, great, but I never like substitutes, be it a mouse, touchscreen, or bumpers, for the feel of a paddle (or in this case the twist knob). It's never the same experience to me. With that said, although we'd NEVER see a Fairchild Channel F/VES or Astrocade collection (just to name the two with that specific type of controller), I would certainly love to still see one. Personally, I'd rather have an Odyssey2 collection as I have a bit more fondness for that platform than the F/VES/Astrocade, but that's another one that I seriously doubt we'll ever see (I wonder if Philips still has the rights to the original games somewhere in a dusty closet?).

[famicommander]

Forget the colors, 99% of Spectrum games look like a damn power point presentation. The system handles movement like a 700 pound man with two broken legs and 6 broken ribs.

[famicommander]

3 hours ago, jgkspsx said:

 

Whomever did the sound for this game has committed a crime against humanity. That opening "tune" is absolutely brutal to listen to and the game itself isn't much better.

Edited September 20, 2023 by famicommander

[Bill Loguidice]

1 hour ago, famicommander said:

Forget the colors, 99% of Spectrum games look like a damn power point presentation. The system handles movement like a 700 pound man with two broken legs and 6 broken ribs.

Animation, smoothness, and game speed are a problem for a lot of computers of that era, especially the ones that basically hammer the processor rather than secondary chips for generating most or all of their content. That's definitely an issue with the Spectrum and Amstrad and other computer platforms like the CoCo.

 

I'd still be quite happy with a properly curated collection. Frankly, the worst offenders, at least on the British computers, were the quick cash-in licensed titles, but we'd be unlikely to get any of those anyway. It's the originals that I'd want to see.

[roots.genoa]

And the ZX Spectrum got incredible homebrew games in recent years, especially from the Sanchez Crew (Castlevania Spectral Interlude, Aliens Neoplasma, Might Final Fight, a new Power Blade game, etc.). Of course there would be a huge license problem for Evercade. Zosya also makes impressive games, including first person shooters and 3D racers.

 

[famicommander]

59 minutes ago, roots.genoa said:

And the ZX Spectrum got incredible homebrew games in recent years, especially from the Sanchez Crew (Castlevania Spectral Interlude, Aliens Neoplasma, Might Final Fight, a new Power Blade game, etc.). Of course there would be a huge license problem for Evercade. Zosya also makes impressive games, including first person shooters and 3D racers.

 

That first video is really impressive and the game looks like it may actually be fun but I still feel worse after watching it for five minutes than I do after I play 2 hours worth of Virtual Boy. The choppiness and the screen tearing is just too much. Second game looks really, really bad and not at all fun.

[mr_me]

9 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

If you're OK with that, great, but I never like substitutes, be it a mouse, touchscreen, or bumpers, for the feel of a paddle (or in this case the twist knob). It's never the same experience to me. With that said, although we'd NEVER see a Fairchild Channel F/VES or Astrocade collection (just to name the two with that specific type of controller), I would certainly love to still see one. Personally, I'd rather have an Odyssey2 collection as I have a bit more fondness for that platform than the F/VES/Astrocade, but that's another one that I seriously doubt we'll ever see (I wonder if Philips still has the rights to the original games somewhere in a dusty closet?).

I think Ed Averitt retained the rights to the Odyssey2 games he programmed.

 

The Astrocade controller does have an analog paddle integrated in the joystick but the Channel F does not.  They are very different.

 

----------

Regarding colours, the ZX Spctrum used a straight rgbi colour palette.  With some other systems that have fixed 16 colour palettes, colours were individually chosen and programmed into the graphics hardware.  EGA had user programmable 6-bit colours; the default palette was for CGA backward compatibility.  The Atari systems were the best for colours.

Edited September 20, 2023 by mr_me

[Matt_B]

Aaargh. My eyes. Look at that terrible color palette, the low resolution, the flickering and disappearing sprites, that weird corruption going on just above the status bar and what on Earth is happening at the right edge of the screen when it scrolls?!?!? How could anyone even play that game? 🙂

 

Seriously guys. That's how you're coming across when you're nitpicking over games that are incredible programming achievements that far surpass the design limitations of the platforms they're running on.

 

Also, the idea that computers aren't games machines if they've not got X, Y and Z is just ludicrous. Even the Commodore PET had a games scene in spite of being monochrome, text-only, with no sound and having keyboard-only controls; there's some pretty good stuff for it in spite of those limitations too. After that, practically every computer since was going to be used for games and everyone knew it.

[+jgkspsx]

In fact, we’re getting a port of Attack of the PETSCII Robots! I don’t know what the point is without the PETSCII, though 😜 

[famicommander]

1 hour ago, Matt_B said:

Aaargh. My eyes. Look at that terrible color palette, the low resolution, the flickering and disappearing sprites, that weird corruption going on just above the status bar and what on Earth is happening at the right edge of the screen when it scrolls?!?!? How could anyone even play that game? 🙂

 

Seriously guys. That's how you're coming across when you're nitpicking over games that are incredible programming achievements that far surpass the design limitations of the platforms they're running on.

 

Also, the idea that computers aren't games machines if they've not got X, Y and Z is just ludicrous. Even the Commodore PET had a games scene in spite of being monochrome, text-only, with no sound and having keyboard-only controls; there's some pretty good stuff for it in spite of those limitations too. After that, practically every computer since was going to be used for games and everyone knew it.

Super Mario Bros 3 is smooth, responsive, and well animated. Sorry, but knowing the limitations the games were designed with don't make them any more or less fun to stare at. Spectrum games are choppy and they give me a headache to stare at for extended periods of time. It's not like I can't handle pre-NES games. I have a 2600, 5200, 7800, Atari 8-bit, Odyssey 2, Intellivision, Coleco Vision, and Vectrex. I have played plenty of Commodore 64 games via emulation. All of those systems have games that didn't stand the test of time but they also all have plenty of games I can still play and enjoy in 2023. The Spectrum is just a bridge too far. I'm not asking you to forsake your Spectrum and throw it out the window. I'm not asking you to avoid any future Spectrum-related compilations. Just don't expect everybody else to be excited about it.

 

I enjoy my Virtual Boy and I've always been able to play it without much discomfort but I'm not going to tell other people they're wrong if they can't do the same. And I've never had a problem with the 3D effect on either the 3DS or New 3DS and I always play with the 3D effect turned all the way up unless it tanks the frame rate, but I'm not going to argue with people who prefer to play with the 3D effect off. I don't expect other people to put up with physical discomfort just to get the same video game experience that I get. 

[Matt_B]

2 hours ago, jgkspsx said:

In fact, we’re getting a port of Attack of the PETSCII Robots! I don’t know what the point is without the PETSCII, though 😜 

Besides, Dave Murray is the 8-Bit guy, not the 16-Bit guy!

 

Seriously, given the comments here, I can see why they went with the Amiga version and they've all got identical gameplay.

 

Still, the PET was the primary platform for a reason, so that he didn't get too bogged down on the graphics and sound, and it'd be nice if they could throw it in as an Easter egg or something.

[+jgkspsx]

39 minutes ago, Matt_B said:

Still, the PET was the primary platform for a reason, so that he didn't get too bogged down on the graphics and sound, and it'd be nice if they could throw it in as an Easter egg or something.

It would be neat but I bet the juice of getting a PET emulator running wouldn’t be worth the squeeze.

[Matt_B]

41 minutes ago, jgkspsx said:

It would be neat but I bet the juice of getting a PET emulator running wouldn’t be worth the squeeze.

Maybe not then. Most versions of the game (and yes, that includes the Spectrum one) feature a PETSCII mode though. I've never seen it in operation in the Amiga version.