Fred_M Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 (edited) I have watched the videos of Genxgrownup to see and hear the sound quality. He let us hear a direct capture of the game MULE in 50hz (PAL) mode. The sound appears to be fine and not as bad as the libretrocore that is available. Sadly the soundtrack of MULE does not include samples, so I am not yet 100% sure that the sound is ok. But I have ordered one to test it myself (it will be delivered tomorrow, in The Netherlands the 400 mini is still in stock). But what got my attention was that Genxgrownup loads various games from USB stick. One of those games is Draconus (which is a PAL game) and you can clearly see it is running in NTSC mode. Sprites are flickering and the screen size is not correct (bottom part of the screen is not displayed). But when I look at footage of the PAL games which are included with the console, like Henry's House and Elektra Glide, it is clear that the 400 mini switches to PAL mode automatically for these games. There is no flickering, the speed is correct AND you can see that the screensize is a bit bigger (bottom of the screen). So it looks like the 400 mini (the emulator) is able to switch to PAL-mode when the user selects a PAL game. I will test if the 400 mini is running in 50hz mode when one of the included PAL games are loaded. I am curious to see if the console is switching the output to 720p 50hz or if the emulator is displaying PAL games correctly in 720p 60hz. But what I don't understand is: Why is it so difficult for the user to switch between PAL and NTSC as it is only available as a setting during the set-up procedure. I hope that Plaion/Retro Games will include a simple PAL/NTSC switch option so US users can play European games correctly too. Edited March 27 by Fred_M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donjn Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 4 minutes ago, Fred_M said: I have watched the videos of Genxgrownup to see and hear the sound quality. He let us hear a direct capture of the game MULE in 50hz (PAL) mode. The sound appears to be fine and not as bad as the libretrocore that is available. Sadly the soundtrack of MULE does not include samples, so I am not yet 100% sure that the sound is ok. But I have ordered one to test it myself (it will be delivered tomorrow, in The Netherlands the 400 mini is still in stock). But what got my attention was that Genxgrownup loads various games from USB stick. One of those games is Draconus (which is a PAL game) and you can clearly see it is run in NTSC mode. Sprites are flickering and the screen size is not correct (bottom part of the screen is not displayed correctly). But when I look at footage of the PAL games which are included with the console, like Henry's House and Elektra Glide, it is clear that the 400 mini switches to PAL mode automatically. There is no flickering, the speed is correct AND you can see that the screensize is a bit bigger (bottom of the screen). So it looks like the 400 mini (the emulator) is able to switch to PAL-mode when the user selects a PAL game. I will test if the 400 mini is running in 50hz mode when one of the included PAL games are loaded. I am curious to see if the console is switching the output to 720p 50hz or if the emulator is displaying PAL games correctly in 720p 60hz. But what I don't understand is: Why is it so difficult for the user to switch between PAL and NTSC as it is only available as a setting during the set-up procedure. I hope that Plaion/Retro Games will include a simple PAL/NTSC switch option so US users can play European games correctly too. Just my opinion but this is a big, fat and juicy nothingburger with cheese. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred_M Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 1 minute ago, donjn said: Just my opinion but this is a big, fat and juicy nothingburger with cheese. Please watch this video and hopefully you will change your mind.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donjn Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 7 minutes ago, Fred_M said: Please watch this video and hopefully you will change your mind.... This is more about a real Atari on a CRT vs an emulator... Yes a real Atari on a CRT will always be better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 6 hours ago, www.atarimania.com said: It would be interesting to know which versions of the games were chosen. Agreed; but I think a lot of the people reviewing these are not so into the 8-bit computers enough to know some of the differences. I suppose the developers could give up the information; but I don't see that happening soon, if at all. 6 hours ago, www.atarimania.com said: For example, Flip and Flop appears to be the cart edition whereas the disk release has a different font and looks a bit better. Yes, the disk version uses a redefined font, whereas the cart version just uses the default system font. Also, the disk version has a title screen (although not the best I've seen for a First Star game; their title screens for some other games are a bit nicer). Same with the disk version of Bristles; you get a nice title screen there. No title screen on the cart version. This is somewhat common. Carts didn't always have room for title screens to be included. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred_M Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 2 minutes ago, donjn said: This is more about a real Atari on a CRT vs an emulator... Yes a real Atari on a CRT will always be better! Both displays are LCD TVs and not CRTs. Don't you hear the bad sound quality of the second part? That is an emulator using the libretro 800 core. The second part of my post is about playing PAL games in NTSC. I guess you are not an Atari 8-bit user, because you would know there are hundreds of very good Atari 8-bit games that will run only in PAL mode and will even crash in NTSC mode. US 400 mini users will not be able to run these games easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donjn Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 1 minute ago, Fred_M said: Both displays are LCD TVs and not CRTs. Don't you hear the bad sound quality of the second part? That is an emulator using the libretro 800 core. The second part of my post is about playing PAL games in NTSC. I guess you are not an Atari 8-bit user, because you would know there are hundreds of very good Atari 8-bit games that will run only in PAL mode and will even crash in NTSC mode. US 400 mini users will not be able to run these games easily. Yes I heard the bad sound in the second example. But is it apples to apples? What speakers were used? I also heard the sound is not bad in the 400 mini so we will see. Ive never messed with PAL games in my life, never had to. As soon as I see "PAL" I turn the other way. But I do see how this would affect people outside of the USA or enthusiasts who enjoy PAL versions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred_M Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 (edited) 4 minutes ago, donjn said: I also heard the sound is not bad in the 400 mini so we will see. Both tests used the same external speaker system 😉 I will test the 400 mini extensively, I am very curious to know which emulator is used. I still assume it is the libretro 800 core, but hopefully Retro Games improved it. 4 minutes ago, donjn said: Ive never messed with PAL games in my life, never had to. As soon as I see "PAL" I turn the other way. But I do see how this would affect people outside of the USA or enthusiasts who enjoy PAL versions. You are missing out on some very good games 😃 Edited March 27 by Fred_M 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donjn Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Fred_M said: I guess you are not an Atari 8-bit user And saying this is lame, considering how geeky you would have to be about the Atari 8 bit to even be in this forum all the time like I am. But understand that not all users are the same level as you. There are a lot of us who enjoy Atari 8-bit games who are not Atari collector and preservationists since 1985, and have 2722 original software packages, 79 computers/consoles, 190 pheripherals, 259 books, 1037 magazines, 669 PD disks/tapes, etc, etc... I think its cool you are into it that much, in another life, I am right there with you. But I am not there in this life. I just like to play casually. Edited March 27 by donjn 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred_M Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 (edited) 28 minutes ago, donjn said: Just my opinion but this is a big, fat and juicy nothingburger with cheese. And this comment was not cheeky? 😉 Let's move on and enjoy the games 😃 Edited March 27 by Fred_M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donjn Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 Just now, Fred_M said: And this comment was not cheeky? 😉 Let's move on and enjoy the games 😃 Oh it was definitely cheeky LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donjn Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 My concern is input lag. I am pretty sure it uses the libretro "Atari 800" core but Ive heard maybe with Retroarch. If so, for 5200 at least, I wonder if this can be hacked to use read-ahead. Response time is something I am super geeky about, and am worried the 400 mini will have lag like the C64 mini had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred_M Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 15 minutes ago, donjn said: My concern is input lag. I am pretty sure it uses the libretro "Atari 800" core but Ive heard maybe with Retroarch. If so, for 5200 at least, I wonder if this can be hacked to use read-ahead. Response time is something I am super geeky about, and am worried the 400 mini will have lag like the C64 mini had. Interesting! I never have played the C64 mini, but I hope the lag of the 400 mini will be acceptable. It will be very sad if the lag is too big. I will test it tomorrow. The Myarcade Gamestation pro uses the libretro 800 core with the bad sound quality. I have seen some reviews on Youtube and heard it immediatly. Also I was very surprised the Gamestation pro did not use the official 5200 rom, but the Altirra rom in stead (which is not compatible with many 5200 games). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+swlovinist Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 2 hours ago, MrFish said: Ah, I see. I'll be interested to hear some of those other reviews then. That's too bad. My initial impression of the controller is that it may be a weak point for the system. People (including myself) had doubts about the unique positions of the extra buttons (particularly the ring buttons) possibly being an issue for accidental triggering; and it seems those doubts are being confirmed by the GenX guy's experience so far. He had suggested redefining particular functions away from buttons that were being more easily triggered by accident; but this is hardly an ideal solution (and apparently not possible with the built-in games). To me, the problem is an indication that there may not have been enough testing done with the controller. It seem like a slick idea - to put buttons on the ring -- but in practice it might not function so great. As we all know, the controller is an important component for a game system. Having to bring our own controller lowers the value of that part of the system. Hopefully something can be done without too much trouble for the control issues you've experienced; but if they are hardware issues, they aren't going away easily. I suppose firmware changes could make the extra buttons less sensitive, in order to remedy the problem the GenX guy is experiencing. We'll see how things go. Honestly with using a PS4 controller, all my problems with control went away. With so many options to use modern controllers to replace the pack in controller, it is an easy fix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 14 minutes ago, swlovinist said: Honestly with using a PS4 controller, all my problems with control went away. With so many options to use modern controllers to replace the pack in controller, it is an easy fix. I don't know; you seemed pretty unhappy in your review when you weren't able to use the controller provided for more than just one or two games. I know I'd find it disappointing if I paid for a controller and it didn't work as it's supposed to with the system; that's just throwing money away, as it constitutes a certain portion of item's price. Also, everybody doesn't have a suitable USB controller just laying around; I say "suitable" because every USB controller is not good for retro games. I find many gamepads difficult to use with these older games that were designed for joysticks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 Just now, MrFish said: I don't know; you seemed pretty unhappy in your review when you weren't able to use the controller provided for more than just one or two games. I know I'd find it disappointing if I paid for a controller and it didn't work as it's supposed to; that's just throwing money away, as it constitutes a certain portion of item's price. Also, everybody doesn't have a suitable USB controller just laying around; I say "suitable" because every USB controller is not good for retro games. I find many gamepads difficult to use with these older games that were designed for joysticks. For what's it worth, I've had no issues with lag and the included joystick (my test display has minimal lag and is in Game Mode). It works great if you're used to the original Atari 2600 joystick. The mapping of extra buttons is what it is, i.e., not ideal in all cases, but I understand the argument for sticking to the original joystick design. My How-To Geek review should be out in a few days. I submitted it early, but because they pulled a switcheroo with the embargo date, there was no early room on the editorial calendar to get it up sooner. Spoiler, I generally liked it a lot. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donjn Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 4 minutes ago, MrFish said: I don't know; you seemed pretty unhappy in your review when you weren't able to use the controller provided for more than just one or two games. I know I'd find it disappointing if I paid for a controller and it didn't work as it's supposed to with the system; that's just throwing money away, as it constitutes a certain portion of item's price. Also, everybody doesn't have a suitable USB controller just laying around; I say "suitable" because every USB controller is not good for retro games. I find many gamepads difficult to use with these older games that were designed for joysticks. I agree, when I watched his video it was very heavy on controller issues, almost like he should not have recommended the system. You cna use an Xbox or Playstation controller but you shouldnt HAVE to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donjn Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 3 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said: For what's it worth, I've had no issues with lag and the included joystick (my test display has minimal lag and is in Game Mode). It works great if you're used to the original Atari 2600 joystick. The mapping of extra buttons is what it is, i.e., not ideal in all cases, but I understand the argument for sticking to the original joystick design. My How-To Geek review should be out in a few days. I submitted it early, but because they pulled a switcheroo with the embargo date, there was no early room on the editorial calendar to get it up sooner. Spoiler, I generally liked it a lot. But are you sensitive to lag? I've had this discussion for 20 years. So many times I hear someone say that input lag (on X system or x emulator) is "fine" but their version of fine is not the same as mine. Now, I don’t expect CRT timing response times, of course. But I surely hope the lag is not as bad as their other product, the C64 mini. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 Just now, donjn said: But are you sensitive to lag? I've had this discussion for 20 years. So many times I hear someone say that input lag (on X system or x emulator) is "fine" but their version of fine is not the same as mine. Now, I don’t expect CRT timing response times, of course. But I surely hope the lag is not as bad as their other product, the C64 mini. I'm not a lag snob by any means, but I would notice it. Playing games like Wavy Navy and other fast-response games included, you'd definitely notice any delay. I had no issue with the included controller nor using an Xbox One controller wirelessly. The main culprit is almost always the display being used and how that's set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donjn Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said: The main culprit is almost always the display being used and how that's set. Usually, this is the case, but I have run into many instances where it is not. The first response I always get, "turn on game mode" on your TV or monitor etc. I AM a lag snob for lack of a better word and my systems and monitors are fine tuned for zero lag. I won't even play anything wirelessly. lol In a perfect world Id have 2 or 3 CRTs but just do not have the room. Edited March 27 by donjn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 3 minutes ago, donjn said: I won't even play anything wirelessly. lol You are indeed a special breed then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donjn Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said: You are indeed a special breed then. Well, I lied, Xbox Series X and PS5 I do sometimes But not for the older stuff, where I grew up with a CRT and stupid fast response times! Edited March 27 by donjn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 18 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said: For what's it worth, I've had no issues with lag and the included joystick (my test display has minimal lag and is in Game Mode). I didn't say anything about lag. I was specifically referring to @swlovinist's comments and review concerning control "issues". He didn't mention anything about lag, but rather issues being able to control certain games, wherein he was able to substitute alternate controllers and play the same games without any issues. 36 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said: The mapping of extra buttons is what it is, i.e., not ideal in all cases, but I understand the argument for sticking to the original joystick design. Yes, I understand the value of using a CX40-inspired stick; but it seems their choice of locating buttons on the ring might not be the best. 38 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said: My How-To Geek review should be out in a few days. I submitted it early, but because they pulled a switcheroo with the embargo date, there was no early room on the editorial calendar to get it up sooner. Spoiler, I generally liked it a lot. I'm looking forward to seeing some other reviews and opinions. I know they'll be plenty of other takes on some of the issues being discussed here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 42 minutes ago, donjn said: I agree, when I watched his video it was very heavy on controller issues, almost like he should not have recommended the system. Yeah, his review was really overall quite positive, but I think he wanted to stress that it's not perfect and that some people might want to wait until the manufacturer has had a chance to address some issues that will come up with this first round of users. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeberbach Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 (edited) Mine is here. Despite being very small, it contains Violence! Only "Very Mild" though so that's OK. 😂 I really LOVE the Atari-beige HDMI and USB-C cables. Sorry The400, those belong to the 800 now. Edited March 28 by aeberbach 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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