How has this not been posted yet? Retro VGS

[+remowilliams]

So eons ago on the first page here, I said this upon simply seeing the Jaguar shell and not being able to shake the feeling that using it for a new console seemed the equivalent of standing on a hilltop in a thunderstorm wearing wet copper armour and shouting 'All gods are bastards'

 

So what's the name, Titanic or Hindenburg?

 

 

I couldn't have even in my wildest imagination, invented what's transpired since...

 

 

[Greg2600]

So eons ago on the first page here, I said this upon simply seeing the Jaguar shell and not being able to shake the feeling that using it for a new console seemed the equivalent of standing on a hilltop in a thunderstorm wearing wet copper armour and shouting 'All gods are bastards'

 

I couldn't have even in my wildest imagination, invented what's transpired since...

 

I had the same feeling, but some people just love to bash and bash and bash.

[+madman]

I couldn't have even in my wildest imagination, invented what's transpired since...

I don't know if there's a best of or hall of fame AA sub-forum, but this thread alone should warrant such a thing.

[+5-11under]

Eval board and VGA monitor > Cardboard and connectors.

[phoenixdownita]

Enough with the "eval" board, that would only have told us which manufacturer they were going with for the FPGA and not that they actually built any core on it.

I bet that they are planning to "convince" many of the Mist/Chamaleon core developers (and that kevin guy from NES HDMI fame) to port their cores for a dime or less so they can sell the console.

 

A proto with their components on it is what we need, showing off the "hello world" of the eval board itself at this point would be double insult.

Edited September 18, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[PlaysWithWolves]

Eval board and VGA monitor > Cardboard and connectors.

 

I got nothin'.

 

 

Enough with the "eval" board, that would only have told us which manufacturer they were going with for the FPGA and not that they actually built any core on it.

I bet that they are planning to "convince" many of the Mist/Chamaleon core developers (and that kevin guy from NES HDMI fame) to port their cores for a dime or less so they can sell the console.

 

A proto with their components on it is what we need, showing off the "hello world" of the eval board itself at this point would be double insult.

 

And, here's why we won't likely see any dev electronics. No matter what they do it won't be enough for some of you; even the ones who don't wish to spend a penny.

[+Tarzilla]

Enough with the "eval" board, that would only have told us which manufacturer they were going with for the FPGA and not that they actually built any core on it.

I bet that they are planning to "convince" many of the Mist/Chamaleon core developers (and that kevin guy from NES HDMI fame) to port their cores for a dime or less so they can sell the console.

 

A proto with their components on it is what we need, showing off the "hello world" of the eval board itself at this point would be double insult.

The cores having to be licensed quote from a few pages back tells me the Nintendo cores are out. Atari 2600 won't require licencing, Intellivision Productions and Coleco Holdings would probably be open to reasonably licencing. Sega would probably entertain licensed Genesis or SMS Cores...what's left?

[CPUWIZ]

So eons ago on the first page here, I said this upon simply seeing the Jaguar shell and not being able to shake the feeling that using it for a new console seemed the equivalent of standing on a hilltop in a thunderstorm wearing wet copper armour and shouting 'All gods are bastards'

 

[Andromeda Stardust]

I don't know if there's a best of or hall of fame AA sub-forum, but this thread alone should warrant such a thing.

ET Landfill Adventures gets my vote being considerably longer, and actually came to fruition when some guy with a crane dug up some crushed old games. But hey, the legacy and history that is the RetroVGS is still being written so...

[Andromeda Stardust]

The cores having to be licensed quote from a few pages back tells me the Nintendo cores are out. Atari 2600 won't require licencing, Intellivision Productions and Coleco Holdings would probably be open to reasonably licencing. Sega would probably entertain licensed Genesis or SMS Cores...what's left?

Why no Nintendo cores? The design patents on the systems are all expired. Only the copyright on games themselves are still valid. Any unlicensed or homebrew is fair game. See also SNA3D.

Edited September 18, 2015 by stardust4ever

[PlaysWithWolves]

Why no Nintendo cores? The design patents on the systems are all expired. Only the copyright on games themselves are still valid. Any unlicensed or homebrew is fair game. See also SNA3D.

 

I would encourage people to actually listen to that portion of the podcast (hence why I marked the time) instead of only my interpretation. That whole bit wasn't very clear to me.

[phoenixdownita]

 

 

And, here's why we won't likely see any dev electronics. No matter what they do it won't be enough for some of you; even the ones who don't wish to spend a penny.

 

I only ask to see a proto, an eval board is not something they build. It is something that Altera/Xilinx etc... build and it is used to evaluate the FPGA itself for your own usages.

I am interested in their system, a dev board for their system is good enough, but it is even more complex than a proto board.

Edited September 18, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[+Tarzilla]

Why no Nintendo cores? The design patents on the systems are all expired. Only the copyright on games themselves are still valid. Any unlicensed or homebrew is fair game. See also SNA3D.

If that is in fact the case for both NES and SNES patents around FPGA cores then great, probably won't stop Nin tendo lawyers from making life miserable for the RetroVGS if they want to. I'll have to listen to the podcast

[Mux]

Enough with the "eval" board, that would only have told us which manufacturer they were going with for the FPGA and not that they actually built any core on it.

I bet that they are planning to "convince" many of the Mist/Chamaleon core developers (and that kevin guy from NES HDMI fame) to port their cores for a dime or less so they can sell the console.

 

A proto with their components on it is what we need, showing off the "hello world" of the eval board itself at this point would be double insult.

 

Actually, it wouldn't. Depending on the features of the FPGA, it's relatively straight-forward to switch. All an eval-board is is an FPGA + memory + some communication glue and IO to make it useful. And they *would* be able to show off many cores as you could just upload them directly from PC.

Most old console cores are out and used to be available on fpgaarcade. For more cores, check out opencores.org to see what people are writing.

 

In short, an eval-board running a game makes a helluva lot of sense to show people you've got shit up and running before you're embarking on creating a custom PCB.

 

-Mux

[+5-11under]

Enough with the "eval" board, that would only have told us which manufacturer they were going with for the FPGA and not that they actually built any core on it.

I bet that they are planning to "convince" many of the Mist/Chamaleon core developers (and that kevin guy from NES HDMI fame) to port their cores for a dime or less so they can sell the console.

 

A proto with their components on it is what we need, showing off the "hello world" of the eval board itself at this point would be double insult.

 

There's nothing wrong with evaluation/development boards. They're usually fairly simple, and in the least, the schematics are available, ready for use for your own design. It's a relatively short jump going from a functioning eval board with the required inputs and outputs doing what they're supposed to be doing to a customized PCB with basically the same parts assembled. Sure, lots can go wrong with signal integrity, but there are people easily found who can do this sort of work.

[phoenixdownita]

My point is that the FPGA is only a piece of their puzzle, they want the main CPU/GPU to be an ARM based SoC, so there's lot more to it.

The FPGA is to be used by the developers, not them, they made that clear.

[Mux]

My point is that the FPGA is only a piece of their puzzle, they want the main CPU/GPU to be an ARM based SoC, so there's lot more to it.

The FPGA is to be used by the developers, not them, they made that clear.

 

Usually an FPGA+ARM combo is just used for communication / re-configuration. So the CPU will take care of handling the USB stack, communicating with the host software on the PC and, in case a cartridge is there, configuring the FPGA. Once that's done, it's all up to the FPGA.

 

-Mux

[+5-11under]

My point is that the FPGA is only a piece of their puzzle, they want the main CPU/GPU to be an ARM based SoC, so there's lot more to it.

The FPGA is to be used by the developers, not them, they made that clear.

 

That didn't seem to be your point. Anyway, presumably they also have an ARM development board, too (or ARM+FPGA).

 

Edit: or what Mux said (again), just 1-2 minutes after he did.

Edited September 18, 2015 by 5-11under

[phoenixdownita]

That is NOT their plan.

Their plan is to have the FPGA in the inteconnect matrix available to the developers who cares to write VHDL/Verilog for it (we still don't know what company they will use, but Altera seems a good bet).

 

They do not want to use the ARM bare for IO only, they made it clear in their spec they have a media processor (inside their intended SoC).

 

Tiny Knight is not an FPGA based game, it's purely ARM based. So are all the rest (I mean CPU only). No one is developing anything for an FPGA they have not yet announced.

Edited September 18, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[boxpressed]

I just keep thinking of this old Maximum PC parody.

[phoenixdownita]

OK guys,

here:

http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&CategoryNo=165&No=502

 

now tomorrow I'll have a IGG campaign, give me 350US$ (until I get to 3M$).... do you see how the eval board makes no fuxxing sense per se?

 

The only "eval" board we need to see is their proto with their components connected the way they intended.

Edited September 18, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[Mux]

Sure, if you're just showing the board then by itself it's not an accurate representation. On the other hand, if you show that board hooked up to a PC, with a custom debugger and file interface running Metal Slug and divulge information about your actual system, that's an entirely different story IMO. But yeah, I can see your point as well.

 

Either way, they should be able show something and they haven't so far, so it's all moot..

 

-Mux

[+Tarzilla]

 

I skipped parts, but here's a few things:

 

- 8:28 They're out of personal money and need a cash infusion to continue

- 51:30 Something about some cores have to be officially sanctioned by the original console makers; they really sounded uncomfortable when someone asked about a homebrew Nintendo game. I could be mistaken, but the licensing issues may come up if a developer wants to modify the game's FPGA core so the emulated console acts outside its norms. Like a "wouldn't it be cool if a Super Nintendo just had a few extra cycles" scenario, or whatever.

- 1:22:57 The new expansion port will allow room for the RVGS to grow, so there will never need to be an "RETRO 2".

I listened to the section at 51:30. They weren't saying anything about modifying the cores (like making a Super Super Nintendo core with extra cycles would be against the rules) They were talking about if they provide a core like the Genesis one to developers, the RetroVGS company would go to Sega first to get approval. Expired patents or not, if Sega or Nintendo said no, then I'm positive the core would not be provided. In practice, if a 3rd part dev used a core with their game and included the core on the cart (as was mentioned as a feature,) it would be highly unlikely Nintendo or Sega would care or notice unless the 3rd party company was touting the fact in advertising, "Plays just like a Super Nintendo" would get attention of lawyers...and being right means nothing for an independent developer when a bottomless pit of Nintendo lawyers comes knocking...

 

Edit for spelling

Edited September 18, 2015 by Tarzilla

[Mux]

Absolutely. They're treading on thin ice here. While there are plenty of people emulating (hardware and software) consoles, they're not making money from it. It's somewhere in the same neighborhood as the Repton devices and what not. Given that they're in the US they'll be quite open to litigation. Sega's licensed their IP over to Jax Pacific (IIRC) a while back but at that point it becomes an expensive venture.

 

Maybe that's why they're shooting for $2-3m, so they can bundle it with a few consoles?

 

-Mux

[phoenixdownita]

Sure, if you're just showing the board then by itself it's not an accurate representation. On the other hand, if you show that board hooked up to a PC, with a custom debugger and file interface running Metal Slug and divulge information about your actual system, that's an entirely different story IMO. But yeah, I can see your point as well.

 

Either way, they should be able show something and they haven't so far, so it's all moot..

 

-Mux

Glad we cleared that out.

And just to beat a dead horse, the FPGA (albeit the star in my opinion) is an add on onto the SoCs bus/interconnect, not the other way around. You don't have to use it, their SoC already has full AV capabilities all the way to 1080p60.

 

See their verbiage around it (which changed recently, it used to be called Media processor)

 

As the first game console with a field-programmable gate array (FPGA), RETRO VGS allows game developers to form complex modern sound and graphics circuits to express their creative visions in ways never before possible. The FPGA can generate video at up to 720p/60 or 1080p/30, which the CPU can mix with its images to output up to 1080p/60, all with a palette of more than 16.7 million colors (24-bit true color). RETRO VGS outputs line-level mono or stereo audio that can meet or exceed CD-quality.

 

The CPU can do 1080p60 but the FPGA only 1080p30, the CPU is the mixer as well as independent generator for people that cannot/don't know how/don't need to develop an FPGA core.

Edited September 18, 2015 by phoenixdownita