Evercade?!

[Bill Loguidice]

36 minutes ago, jgkspsx said:

This is your idea, not mine. They should expand the Game of the Month program to include them along with other games, or just throw them on an Indie Heroes collection as a bonus as they did with various other games. They included an objectively not great INTV homebrew on the Sydney Hunter Collection, a collection that probably should not have happened at all.

Regardless of your personal thoughts on Sydney Hunter, it's a cohesive collection of games with a lead 16-bit title, and all from a single source. Unknown, ultra-niche Atari 2600 homebrews could certainly be an additional game or two on a relevant collection (as I stated previously), but wouldn't be enough to stand on their own, arguably even if they were collected en masse. So I'm glad you agree with that point. 

 

Now, to follow through on that same line of thinking, they're clearly not at the point where they have to "resort" to adding no-name Atari 2600 homebrews to the mix of titles. We, the collective "We" on the ultra-niche AtariAge site, can certainly appreciate and enjoy Atari 2600 homebrews of all types, but for a product that relies on the manufacture and distribution of physical media, AND has a large European presence, the risk of releasing such a collection is too great. And again, we know for a fact that what REALLY sells homebrew-wise on pre-Crash consoles is - in the majority - games that are ports of pre-existing popular titles, NOT original creations. There's the biggest rub. With Atari no longer licensing to Evercade, at least for the time being, there's very little incentive to add any further Atari 2600 game collections. The only other one that would make sense would be Activision, something we certainly focused on when I was with AtGames since they were one of the few non-Atari publishers with real name recognition on the platform. Unfortunately, post-Microsoft buyout, the likelihood of that happening are pretty low now. 

 

So again, I get your passion, but you have to keep it in perspective with who the fans of the Evercade platform are as a whole and what they want. There's definitely overlap with Atari 2600 homebrew fans and the subsection of homebrew fans who like original, non-infringing homebrews (we know for a fact that some don't buy anything if it doesn't have a name they recognize), but it's just not going to be enough to justify the whole niche within a niche thing. 

[+jgkspsx]

51 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Now, to follow through on that same line of thinking, they're clearly not at the point where they have to "resort" to adding no-name Atari 2600 homebrews to the mix of titles.

 

They released Doodle World Redrawn, a still awful remake of an awful game. They released Time Knights, which takes 18 minutes to finish and steals sprites and sound effects from Nintendo games. They released Uchusen, possibly the most pointless shooter ever. I love the Evercade and many of the indies, but it's ridiculous to suggest that original 2600 homebrew (much less 7800 or Lynx) is all worse than things they've already released.

And given that two of the titles on Indie Heroes 3 are rereleases of previous Indie Heroes, I am not sure they are not running out of content.

[Bill Loguidice]

19 minutes ago, jgkspsx said:

 

They released Doodle World Redrawn, a still awful remake of an awful game. They released Time Knights, which takes 18 minutes to finish and steals sprites and sound effects from Nintendo games. They released Uchusen, possibly the most pointless shooter ever. I love the Evercade and many of the indies, but it's ridiculous to suggest that original 2600 homebrew (much less 7800 or Lynx) is all worse than things they've already released.

And given that two of the titles on Indie Heroes 3 are rereleases of previous Indie Heroes, I am not sure they are not running out of content.

No, it's not ridiculous to suggest that. I'll try to state the same thing yet again a sightly different way one last time. From a business standpoint, there's no value in no-name Atari 2600 homebrews on a platform like the Evercade. Putting the subjectivity of playability aside, one game being more playable than another really doesn't matter. Putting random Atari 2600 homebrews on there will not impact sales positively over what are thematically actual indies as they classify them.

 

As modest as they are, the indies that they use do have some name recognition and they do try to keep these thematically the same, be it publisher, platform, or category. It would be random to include an obscure Atari 2600 homebrew title. And again, the audience for non-Atari-published 2600 games is not there versus what they have access to. With Atari/M-Network and Activision/Imagic off the table at this time, there's unlikely to be anything related to the Atari 2600/7800/Lynx after what was already released. They'll no doubt continue to focus on 8-/16-bit computers and post-Crash consoles going forward, as well as more native content. I'd say that's not an outrageous assumption based on all we know.

[jerseystyle]

1 hour ago, jgkspsx said:

 

They released Doodle World Redrawn, a still awful remake of an awful game. They released Time Knights, which takes 18 minutes to finish and steals sprites and sound effects from Nintendo games. They released Uchusen, possibly the most pointless shooter ever. I love the Evercade and many of the indies, but it's ridiculous to suggest that original 2600 homebrew (much less 7800 or Lynx) is all worse than things they've already released.

 

It isn’t about what’s “better” or “worse”, it’s about what will sell. From a business standpoint it doesn’t make sense. Most 2600 homebrew sell in the dozens. They might be awesome but Evercade isn’t gonna throw away money just to get AA Forum cred.

[+jgkspsx]

How many copies of Time Knights do you think Retro Room has sold? I guarantee it's less than many homebrews from the Atari Age 2600 library and way less than some of the more successful Lynx and Jaguar games.

 

I also guarantee that Atari has sold more copies of Mr Run and Jump 2600 homebrew than Mega Cat has sold copies of anything ever.

 

Based anecdotally on clearance sales and perpetual availability, the worst selling Evercade carts have been Bitmap Brothers, Gremlin, Gaelco, Piko 2, and Mega Cat 2. I expect Sydney Hunter to join that list as a small set of middling to poor games with zero name recognition. Atari and Intellivision games have never really gone on clearance and have been sold out from many distributors a lot. It took me months to get an NTSC copy of Atari 1.

[roots.genoa]

3 hours ago, jgkspsx said:

Atari and Intellivision games have never really gone on clearance and have been sold out from many distributors a lot. It took me months to get an NTSC copy of Atari 1.

Yeah but Atari and Intellivision carts don't offer homebrew games. Retrogaming is (unfortunately) mostly driven by nostalgia, so most people are interested in classics they already know. There are two conflicting factors here:

• People prefer rereleases over original games
• People prefer post-NES systems over pre-NES systems

The problem with the cart you suggest is it would belong to the least popular group for both factors. Personally I would welcome such a cart since I'm not very familiar with the 2600 homebrew scene, but I agree with the others Blaze might find it too risky. But I would gladly be mistaken, believe me.

[+GoldLeader]

1 hour ago, roots.genoa said:

Yeah but Atari and Intellivision carts don't offer homebrew games. Retrogaming is (unfortunately) mostly driven by nostalgia, so most people are interested in classics they already know. There are two conflicting factors here:

• People prefer rereleases over original games
• People prefer post-NES systems over pre-NES systems

The problem with the cart you suggest is it would belong to the least popular group for both factors. Personally I would welcome such a cart since I'm not very familiar with the 2600 homebrew scene, but I agree with the others Blaze might find it too risky. But I would gladly be mistaken, believe me.

 

Although I realize you and Bill are probably right...There's still a number of reasons they might do something like release a set of Atari 2600/7800 homebrews.  We can all dare to dream, right?  For one thing,  Evercade has a built in audience;  That is to say some people will automatically collect it because they are going for a full set,  and they could make it a known cart by advertising it on their website, emails, and in circulars included with other games, etc..  Maybe even give it a special color or make it a limited edition or something.  In other words make less and plan on selling less.  The games might be less known,  but licensing said games would likely be cheaper, too. 

 

But instead of it being a blockbuster release monetarily;  They might release it for one of 4 other reasons:

 

                                                                                                               1. Sentiment

                                                                                                               2. Goodwill

                                                                                                               3. Credibility

                                                                                                               4. Tegridy!  

 

                                                                    

                                                                                       

[Songbird]

Pre-orders are now open for Indie Heroes #3 and The C64 #3!  Release date is Feb 29. Order now to ensure you're part of the first wave.

 

Also a very big thank you to everyone who has purchased Evercade through Songbird this year! We know you don't have to purchase from Songbird, so it means a lot that you are willing to support an independent game studio that has been working to support retro systems for decades. It's simply amazing how much the Evercade line has grown from those first couple dozen Lynx #1 and Lynx #2 carts we added to our store in October 2020 because we just had to support all things Lynx.

 

Indie Heroes #3: https://songbird-productions.com/product/evercade-indie-heroes-collection-3/

The C64 #3: https://songbird-productions.com/product/evercade-the-c64-collection-3/

 

 

[roots.genoa]

1 hour ago, GoldLeader said:

Although I realize you and Bill are probably right...There's still a number of reasons they might do something like release a set of Atari 2600/7800 homebrews.

Oh don't get me wrong. I don't necessarily agree completely with Bill, but I wanted to clarify his point since the discussion was kinda looping:

10 Bill: People don't want homebrew games!
20 JGK: But there are homebrew carts already!
30 Bill: But those are post-NES games!
40 JGK: But there are 2600/7800 carts already!
50 Bill: But people don't want homebrew games, though!
60 GOTO 20

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by roots.genoa

[+GoldLeader]

43 minutes ago, roots.genoa said:

Oh don't get me wrong. I don't necessarily agree completely with Bill, but I wanted to clarify his point since the discussion was kinda looping:

10 Bill: People don't want homebrew games!
20 JGK: But there are homebrew carts already!
30 Bill: But those are post-NES games!
40 JGK: But there are 2600/7800 carts already!
50 Bill: But people don't want homebrew games, though!
60 GOTO 20

 

Not to loop it yet further, haha,...

 

It wasn't lost on me at all that you personally might like such a cart (as I say,  Dare to Dream!),  but when I said You and Bill are probably right,  I meant your business case analysis, (to clarify,  it might not make business sense) was probably spot on,  which is why I went the other way,  as to reasons they still might do such a release.   Being in the UK,  I could see them going for a ZX Spectrum Multi though for sure...Let's just hope amidst all the other things they probably want to do, and will do,  that they keep an open mind on that idea from some silly AtariAgers who like their homebrews

 

 

Now back to our regularly scheduled show...

 

How 'bout that Songbird eh?  Those guys always have something I need or want...

[+GoldLeader]

Also I Really wish they'd put out a Vector graphic's greatest hits cart featuring lots of Cinematronics stuff (Star Castle,  Rip-Off, Armor Attack, Etc.,)... That would be an early pre-order for sure!

[+jgkspsx]

1 hour ago, roots.genoa said:

Oh don't get me wrong. I don't necessarily agree completely with Bill, but I wanted to clarify his point since the discussion was kinda looping:

10 Bill: People don't want homebrew games!
20 JGK: But there are homebrew carts already!
30 Bill: But those are post-NES games!
40 JGK: But there are 2600/7800 carts already!
50 Bill: But people don't want homebrew games, though!
60 GOTO 20

 

My point in 40 was that the pre-NES games were not (from external appearances) the worst-selling games, which seemed to be Bill's claim. But it does seem like time for a BREAK.

[+Intellivision Master]

19 hours ago, jgkspsx said:

I think licensing is the issue there. It's a lot easier to license from individual devs than from big companies, and it's probably easier to convince them to have it be included on a yearly anthology cart. Plus, would the retro game of the month just never be released on a cart? Or do you mean a preview of something that is coming?

I figured it would be a license issue.  Yes, I meant like a preview.  It's free for the one month, then the next month is another free retro game to try.  Until the new collection comes out as a cart.

[Bill Loguidice]

4 minutes ago, jgkspsx said:

My point in 40 was that the pre-NES games were not (from external appearances) the worst-selling games, which seemed to be Bill's claim. But it does seem like time for a BREAK.

And my point was the 2600/7800 carts were not homebrew carts. They were known names that are exactly what has always sold. As was stated by myself and others, most of retro gaming and computing is sold on nostalgia, which is why the most interest and most sales are with recognizable names and we get collections with the same types of games over and over again. It's risky to go outside that comfort zone as companies have been burned before.
 

8 hours ago, jgkspsx said:

How many copies of Time Knights do you think Retro Room has sold? I guarantee it's less than many homebrews from the Atari Age 2600 library and way less than some of the more successful Lynx and Jaguar games.

 

I also guarantee that Atari has sold more copies of Mr Run and Jump 2600 homebrew than Mega Cat has sold copies of anything ever.

 

Based anecdotally on clearance sales and perpetual availability, the worst selling Evercade carts have been Bitmap Brothers, Gremlin, Gaelco, Piko 2, and Mega Cat 2. I expect Sydney Hunter to join that list as a small set of middling to poor games with zero name recognition. Atari and Intellivision games have never really gone on clearance and have been sold out from many distributors a lot. It took me months to get an NTSC copy of Atari 1.

Again, you're conflating back-in-the-day Atari games like Missile Command, which do sell and will likely always sell, with no-name homebrews. We've always been talking about no-name Atari 2600/7800 homebrews and how they wouldn't be able to carry a cartridge on their own. A game like Magic and Legend: Time Knights is on Steam, has had a lot of coverage, was a relatively popular GameBoy homebrew, is available on a ton of different platforms, etc. That's a big difference versus an Atari 2600 homebrew that's itself only partially known within the Atari 2600 community, and again, sells far less than an Atari 2600 homebrew based on an existing arcade or computer game that tons of people remember and love.

And I'm sure Atari has sold a good number of Mr Run and Jump, as their fans are Atari fans who own a VCS or 2600/+. So they can be strategic with original homebrews that they prop up. A Mr Run and Jump and Friends collection on Evercade, even if Atari were going to continue to work with them, likely wouldn't do very well. It's a different audience.

So yeah, there's nothing to infer from sales of the Atari and Intellivision carts. No one has ever once indicated that the same games that have always sold based on name and nostalgia wouldn't continue to sell and won't continue to sell. Putting together a collection of no-name homebrews for the same platforms is a completely different story. 

[Bill Loguidice]

52 minutes ago, GoldLeader said:

Also I Really wish they'd put out a Vector graphic's greatest hits cart featuring lots of Cinematronics stuff (Star Castle,  Rip-Off, Armor Attack, Etc.,)... That would be an early pre-order for sure!

While I too would like such a thing, I wouldn't like it on the Evercade. Those games really need high-resolution displays to shine. I don't feel like they'd have justice done to them, especially on the portable screens.

With Analogue releasing the first commercial 4K FPGA console with the Analogue 3D (N64), I feel like we may start to have 4K systems that can genuinely do vector stuff justice, especially if you add HDR to the mix. 

[+GoldLeader]

21 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

While I too would like such a thing, I wouldn't like it on the Evercade. Those games really need high-resolution displays to shine. I don't feel like they'd have justice done to them, especially on the portable screens.

 

 

I'm willing to risk it!

 

Plus I'd probably Really enjoy them on my VS!

[Bill Loguidice]

8 minutes ago, GoldLeader said:

 

I'm willing to risk it!

 

Plus I'd probably Really enjoy them on my Vs!

TATE mode may help things a bit, but I still think the resolution is going to be way too low to render the lines cleanly and clearly enough. It's certainly interesting that there's been no notable commercial attempt to sell vector games outside of the very old iPad Vectrex app (I guess there's a semi-current version of that that now has a monthly fee! - https://apps.apple.com/us/app/vectrex-gameclub/id1455611138).

[+GoldLeader]

Just now, Bill Loguidice said:

TATE mode may help things a bit, but I still think the resolution is going to be way too low to render the lines cleanly and clearly enough. It's certainly interesting that there's been no notable commercial attempt to sell vector games outside of the very old iPad Vectrex app (I guess there's a semi-current version of that that now has a monthly fee! - https://apps.apple.com/us/app/vectrex-gameclub/id1455611138).

 

Well,  think of the various Atari comps and the way they include games like Asteroids, Asteroids Deluxe, Space Duel, Battlezone, Red Baron etc.,  I had a blast with all of those!  Many before HD was even a thing!  So in the end,  maybe 4K will give these games a way to shine (heh), but gameplay is what put them on the map in the first place,  and I'd just be happy getting Star Castle onto my (1080p) TV screen.  

[Bill Loguidice]

14 minutes ago, GoldLeader said:

 

Well,  think of the various Atari comps and the way they include games like Asteroids, Asteroids Deluxe, Space Duel, Battlezone, Red Baron etc.,  I had a blast with all of those!  Many before HD was even a thing!  So in the end,  maybe 4K will give these games a way to shine (heh), but gameplay is what put them on the map in the first place,  and I'd just be happy getting Star Castle onto my (1080p) TV screen.  

True, the Atari vector games are definitely usable on the EXP, so I suppose it could be doable. 

 

[GraffitiTavern]

Just got my Taito Super Pocket in the mail, proud to have ordered from @Songbird (thanks to your team)

 

Specifically have gotten two carts with good handheld games, Lynx Collection 1 and Goodboy Galaxy. Shoutout to the Goodboy Galaxy + Witch n' Wiz team, one of the new carts, haven't gotten to play yet but it comes with a good manual(with little comic), sticker sheet, and a hand-drawn walkthrough for Witch n' Wiz! Really good value for $20.

[GraffitiTavern]

Gotten to play it a bit, like it so far! Some issues but it fills the niche of a real pocket handheld I need for when I'm on my lunch breaks.

The Taito Super Pocket is dying to have the Lynx version of Qix. Enjoying Volfied a lot more than I expected but god as a TATE game the play area is so small on that screen. The GBA and Lynx titles work really well and I think I made the right choice on carts. If anyone else is just picking it up as a handheld(as opposed to the collector's aspect) would definitely recommend those two collections and any other GBA games.

[+jgkspsx]

1 hour ago, GraffitiTavern said:

The Taito Super Pocket is dying to have the Lynx version of Qix. Enjoying Volfied a lot more than I expected but god as a TATE game the play area is so small on that screen.

The tate games are not at their best for sure BUT I do want to point out that fullscreen on a 4:3 screen looks a lot better than fullscreen on a 16:9 screen. Volfied seemed to play fine in full screen mode to me.

[Recycled]

I've had the Taito version for a week and a half now.  I play it quite a bit.  I've left the full screen setting on for everything the last few days. Also, I was surprised how much I enjoy playing Space Invaders again. Didn't think I would care at this point. Finally, I like the way the buttons feel on it. I only tested one cart, Piko Interactive Arcade.  Works great, except can't remap buttons like I did on the exp, so I won't play the games that have A and B switched.  Steel Force is blast on the Super Pocket though. Overall, glad I got it. 

[+jgkspsx]

One of the discord regulars made this awesome tool for ranking your favorite carts. Here's mine: https://caderranker.nromdotcom.cloud/ranking/74fd1a3a-9fb0-4e43-8dd0-996390193f97

 

The top and the bottom are stable but every time I redo it I get different orders for everything in between.

[roots.genoa]

I don't understand the "hate" towards Tanglewood and Xeno Crisis. I know Shaun Musgrave agrees with you, but it's one of my favorite carts. I really prefer a cart with few excellent games than a ton of mediocre games, and I'm more interested in homebrew games than "classics" (which don't always age well).