emkay Posted February 7, 2004 Author Share Posted February 7, 2004 The Demo is released in dec 2003 so it is really "fresh" May I put the supplemental in, that this Demo itself is the weakest I saw on C64? The Bump Mapping is really poor and the music is nothing to mention... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracon Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 The Dragon Picture is nice. Referring to the image... Do you think it would be possible to put the green colour out of the "Hero"... it would be nearly perfect then. When the next version of G2F is released, you will check that this was the most I can do (there is some limits, anyway!). Maybe warrior is greenish in some areas but it's not very big problem, I hope. BTW. his shield is colored with raster changing (AUTOMATIC mode). Hey, Emkay, what's up with you? When are you going to prepare another G2F image I can describe you the way I use midline changes if needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 May I put the supplemental in, that this Demo itself is the weakest I saw on C64? The Bump Mapping is really poor and the music is nothing to mention... Well, y'can if you want but that's the point where people realise you missed the point of most of the routines... =-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 emkay...i can't find the demo on smash' site? where can i download it? tmr... what do you think of metal dust? imho the best is the title screen at the mo... if i look on the ingame screens the syle looks strange. i mean there is no "guideline" through the levels... i like level 3 the best... level 4 looks like r-type or turrican and level 1 looks ok as well... but level 3 aaaarg... i personally don't like mixing 4 colour gfx with highres... (http://www.protovision-previews.de) it's interesting that there is a 4 player pacman as well... seems that i should code little bit more... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted February 8, 2004 Author Share Posted February 8, 2004 emkay...i can't find the demo on smash' site? where can i download it? hier äh here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted February 8, 2004 Author Share Posted February 8, 2004 May I put the supplemental in, that this Demo itself is the weakest I saw on C64? The Bump Mapping is really poor and the music is nothing to mention... Well, y'can if you want but that's the point where people realise you missed the point of most of the routines... =-) Well... the main point of my argumentation in this case would be that in every time - from the beginning of the 8-bit era until today - some people did very good coding stuff on the C64 and as a viewer and listener to the final product you could see and hear the "advantage" because the C64 could visualize "everything" and could make audible "all" the coder intendet to do. Perhaps the coder did try everything to visualize his creations, but it does not work as the coder intendet. Is this the limit of the c64? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted February 8, 2004 Author Share Posted February 8, 2004 The Dragon Picture is nice. Referring to the image... Do you think it would be possible to put the green colour out of the "Hero"... it would be nearly perfect then. When the next version of G2F is released, you will check that this was the most I can do (there is some limits, anyway!). Maybe warrior is greenish in some areas but it's not very big problem, I hope. BTW. his shield is colored with raster changing (AUTOMATIC mode). Hmm... I would search for a way to put a grey or a yellow color over the Warrior's greens. Hey, Emkay, what's up with you? When are you going to prepare another G2F image As you can see.... I am still on creation... in graphics and sound... Nazgul picture -> Nazgul music -> Nazgul Demo (thanks to Schmutzpuppe) The next step was another G2F to combine with another RMT, but I am not that ecxited about the musix as I am on the graphics. So I have more pictures than soundtracks for another demo. Meanwhile G2F is doing all possible, there is no "Tracker" for music doing so, even if RMT is the best of them... Perhaps after getting out of sadness and until a "perfect" Tracker will appear I will do some conversions (or creations) I can describe you the way I use midline changes if needed. The newer versions do work well with this function. So there is no need BTW: Did you recognize a bug when in zoom 8x? Sometimes the cursor is going crazy and you try to click "here" and the graphics are changed somewhere on the same Y pos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 Well... the main point of my argumentation in this case would be that in every time - from the beginning of the 8-bit era until today - some people did very good coding stuff on the C64 and as a viewer and listener to the final product you could see and hear the "advantage" because the C64 could visualize "everything" and could make audible "all" the coder intendet to do. Perhaps the coder did try everything to visualize his creations, but it does not work as the coder intendet. Depends if you know what the coder intended to do, i saw (amongst other effects) a multi-lightsource bump map, 2x2 pixel res realtime rotate/twirl routine, bump mapping with colour and shading and a texture mapped tunnel that can turn corners... apart from the half FLI plasma (which is difficult to do at speed anyway - 0.98MHz 6510, remember?) all the routines in there are either doing something new or expanding on what's gone before. AEG seems to always go for impressing other coders, so it's not really possible to dessect what he does without a fairly detailed knowledge of the C64 and it's inner workings. Is this the limit of the c64? No, it was a quick demo as a sign of life - says as much in the disk's directory. =-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted February 8, 2004 Author Share Posted February 8, 2004 Depends if you know what the coder intended to do, i saw (amongst other effects) a multi-lightsource bump map, 2x2 pixel res realtime rotate/twirl routine Sorry TMR. Look at the pictures below. All you can see is a try of using colors as "brightnesses" and there is no depending in lightsource and reflected light. The "trick" of using colours as brightnesses works in this hi-res FLI, but not in a resolution of approx. 80*100. AEG seems to always go for impressing other coders, so it's not really possible to dessect what he does without a fairly detailed knowledge of the C64 and it's inner workings. TMR...please rethink about this quote. The C64 had a slow CPU...YES. But it has some advantages ...especially in the color cells that can build everytime an overlay to the graphics. And every "so hard" called softwareenhancement is an "easy" linear programming step. On the A8 you always have to think "around corners" and you can get very similar effects. But every step you go on A8 you have to go around a corner more, while you can always go straight on the C64. No, it was a quick demo as a sign of life - says as much in the disk's directory. =-) ...yes, but they wrote something about "kicking" too :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fröhn Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 you people overrate this demo. it is just the work of two weeks done by recycling old effects. also aeg always tends to use ugly 4x4 or 8x8 pixel resolutions. there's better demos out on c64. if you want to see a nice bumpmapper, watch larch/resource+breeze. Sorry TMR. Look at the pictures below. All you can see is a try of using colors as "brightnesses" and there is no depending in lightsource and reflected light. whats wrong with that? the colors DO have different luminances, so why not use them like that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fröhn Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 if you want to see a nice bumpmapper, watch larch/resource+breeze. forgot to mention: "soiled legacy"/resource is also worth watching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted February 8, 2004 Author Share Posted February 8, 2004 you people overrate this demo. it is just the work of two weeks done by recycling old effects. also aeg always tends to use ugly 4x4 or 8x8 pixel resolutions. there's better demos out on c64. if you want to see a nice bumpmapper, watch larch/resource+breeze. ... whats wrong with that? the colors DO have different luminances, so why not use them like that? Well I cannot see any similar Bump Mapping effect. AEG tried to use the 16 colors for 16 brightnesses, like it is done in some FLI pictures. But it does not work to the eyes when expecting a "normal" Bump Mapping effect. It was definately a try to put the Numen Bump Mapper onto C64 and it is a very weak one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fröhn Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 Well I cannot see any similar Bump Mapping effect. AEG tried to use the 16 colors for 16 brightnesses, like it is done in some FLI pictures. But it does not work to the eyes when expecting a "normal" Bump Mapping effect. no he used the 16 colors for 9 luminances, if you look close the logo uses other color than the background. It was definately a try to put the Numen Bump Mapper onto C64 and it is a very weak one. numen bumpmapper? it's a standard movelist bumpmapper which has been repeatedly done since almost 10 years now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted February 8, 2004 Author Share Posted February 8, 2004 Well I cannot see any similar Bump Mapping effect. AEG tried to use the 16 colors for 16 brightnesses' date=' like it is done in some FLI pictures. But it does not work to the eyes when expecting a "normal" Bump Mapping effect.[/quote']no he used the 16 colors for 9 luminances' date=' if you look close the logo uses other color than the background. [/quote'] Ofcourse... when he used the same colors for the Logo, no one would see nothing It was definately a try to put the Numen Bump Mapper onto C64 and it is a very weak one. numen bumpmapper? it's a standard movelist bumpmapper which has been repeatedly done since almost 10 years now. As you are saying. So can we please stop this topic here... The main thread is about G2F Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 Sorry TMR. Look at the pictures below. All you can see is a try of using colors as "brightnesses" and there is no depending in lightsource and reflected light. The "trick" of using colours as brightnesses works in this hi-res FLI, but not in a resolution of approx. 80*100. If you remove the motion, it loses the effect. And that's not a pure bump mapper either because it's dealing with coloured areas (it's no accident that adjacent letters are different colours) and shading the lightsource, the multi-lightsource one is earlier in the demo. The C64 had a slow CPU...YES. But it has some advantages ...especially in the color cells that can build everytime an overlay to the graphics. And every "so hard" called softwareenhancement is an "easy" linear programming step. On the A8 you always have to think "around corners" and you can get very similar effects. But every step you go on A8 you have to go around a corner more, while you can always go straight on the C64. Since you're not a C64 coder and have never coded these "easy" software enhancements, don't you think that's a ridiculous assumption to make? Yes the C64 has advantages for some things because of it's screen modes, but there's no linearity to the colour ordering for luminance; you can't just pick a shade and whack it to a modified 80x192 display like the A8 does, everything needs to be rendered to a buffer and shunted to the display through a translation routine to get levels of lightness and that eats CPU time on a machine that already has a speed disadvantage. There's a lot of thinking around corners going on with anything like this to make those translations as fast as possible. And Frohn; you're right, it's not the greatest demo and not Smash's best, but it is nicely done and i'm only "standing up" for it because it's far more complex than emkay thinks and certainly not just a rip-off of the bumpmapper from Numen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted February 8, 2004 Author Share Posted February 8, 2004 don't you think that's a ridiculous assumption to make? Sorry, but the only ridiculous thing is always to protect other coders while they are coding on the "prefered" Hardware. Especially when this Hardware has the outermost capabilites for creating such software... or way round... the software was/is always built to use this special features of the C64. This time (Fallout) a coder got another problem... the C64 has only 16 colours. And, because he could not make it better, everyone is telling it was a "short time creation". By taking a look at 2nd Reality on the C64 the scheme is the same. The more in movement, the more blocky is the graphics. Some Demoparts you can only "realize" when you have seen the original Demo from the PC. Those parts are a step too far from the C64s capabilites and only recognizable by Insider's as you mentioned before. And... It's alike if TMR or Fröhn is still in the opinion that the C64 is hard to code. If it wasn't the easiest machine for coding colorful Games with cool musix, the C64 would not stand in the book of History. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 i've finally had enough of emkay, how good's the ignore on this board...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fröhn Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 don't you think that's a ridiculous assumption to make? Sorry, but the only ridiculous thing is always to protect other coders while they are coding on the "prefered" Hardware. Especially when this Hardware has the outermost capabilites for creating such software... or way round... the software was/is always built to use this special features of the C64. This time (Fallout) a coder got another problem... the C64 has only 16 colours. And, because he could not make it better, everyone is telling it was a "short time creation". that certain demo is a recycled demo from old smash designs parts which were jerky since day 0. you can make things look good or bad, aeg/smash decided to make them look bad on monitors but good on bigscreens to win the competition, like he always does. ofcourse, that mode looks jerky, but that doesn't mean that the problem "only 16 colors" always leads to a bad outcome. i gave you two examples where people were able to do better. And... It's alike if TMR or Fröhn is still in the opinion that the C64 is hard to code. If it wasn't the easiest machine for coding colorful Games with cool musix, the C64 would not stand in the book of History. the C64 had it's advantages and the outcome is according to them. but that doesn't make coding easier, it just raises the level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 one of my fave c64 production are the ones done by resource... esp. void check out www.resource.cx void has imho nice design and i love overlays on fx...just because they are so "amiga like" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sack-c0s Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 i've finally had enough of emkay, how good's the ignore on this board...? who said that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracon Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 As far as I remember, Steve (Jack Boot Jack) said this as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted February 9, 2004 Author Share Posted February 9, 2004 ... Now let's cross the "off topic" with the "main topic" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 this is one picture i wanted to start with yesterday as well.... strange... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted February 9, 2004 Author Share Posted February 9, 2004 this is one picture i wanted to start with yesterday as well.... strange... Perhaps you saw the same demos? By comparing the picture with the original, you will recognize it is overall not the same. This time I had a heavy problem with unwanted colour-settings. After importing the image it was full of artefacts... BTW. The Picture uses also "normal" G2F. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 As far as I remember, Steve (Jack Boot Jack) said this as well... Yeah, but the rest of you aren't getting rid of me that easily, i'm here until i run out of questions to ask about the hardware...! =-) (i wish JBJ'd come back to be honest, he really knows his stuff.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Like us on Facebook
Follow us on Twitter
AtariAge on Instagram
Watch us on YouTube
Chat on Discord
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.